Ferocious Attack question

[Jasper]

Pirates get Ferocious attack, which among other things gives them +2 initiative when they use it to attack...

How does this work?! By the time you're able to use it, you've already rolled initiative! Do you just declare that you intend to use it when (before? after?) you roll initiative? If so, do the penalties start then, or only once you've made the attack?

 

[Sutek]

Read it again. It says "on the first round of any combat", so the Pirate would declare to be making a Ferocious Attack and then Roll Inititative, adding the +2.

 

[Jasper]

I'm aware it's on the first round of combat. Even on the first round of combat you roll initiative before declaring what you're going to do, and in general only declare what you're doing when you actually act. What you write is also my interpretation of how it probably works, but this is based on nothing in the rules, is purely subjective, and is incomplete.

In particular it doesn't address several issues: if you declare a ferocious attack before rolling initiative, can you pass on your turn and instead ferocious attack later? Can you ready a pre-declared ferocious attack? Can you decide to fercious attack after rolling initiative, without the initiative bonus? Do you get the defense penalty upon making your "declaration", or only upon taking the action? Can you declare a ferocious attack after seeing your initiative roll?

These points are all entirely ambigous as written in the rules.

 

[Sutek]

No. It's not an action, so you can't Ready it. At the start of a combat, on the first round you roll INIT and if your Pirate wants to be making an Ferocious Attack that first round of the combat, he adds +2 to that INIT roll, -2 DV and can't make a Sneak Attack.

Ferocious Attack is not an action and it's only declared during the first round of a combat.

 

[Jasper]

You say this with alot of authority... Are you involved with Conan, or just posting? If you are involved with the design, care to answer the other aspects of this question? IMHO the answers are relatively obvious, but I'd prefer to avoid any potential argument by using some sort of offical answer.

Also, if what you describe is the case, then presumably you are not actually required to attack when your action comes, but could instead run, tie your shoe, etc.?

 

[SnowDog]

I hope I don't sound obnoxious, if so it is not intentional.

If you read the description again, it says that pirate's ferocity tends to rapidly overwhelm almost any opponent. Then comes the game mechanics bits that show how this ability affects the combat.

So if you decide to use this ability, you can only use it at the first round of combat and then you get +2 to initiative roll. You also gain +2 to attack and damage rolls but get -2 to DV because you consentrate on a quick and well ferocious attack that hopefully dispatches the first opponent.

Technically it is nowhere said that you could not use this better initiative and run away, but as a GM I would enforce that the pirate have to use this ability to make the attack or leave this ability unused at that combat because where's the ferocity in running away?

And no, I have nothing to do with designing this game and there are lots of things where I need help

I hope this helps!

 

[Anonymous]

Sutek's response seems pretty clear to me. Before combat starts, decide whether your pirate is going to go ferocious. If so, then he gets a positive modifier to his init roll and to his attack on the first round.

This is not an action, nor does it have to be readied. The rules seem pretty clear about this and you don't have to work for Mongoose to have a firm opinion on it.

 

[Jasper]

Sorry for all the rhetoric, I probably should have just stated my interpretation right off the bat; I hope you guys understand I'm playing devil's advocate. I think it should work the same way, I'm just aiming to head off any rules arguments during a game. In my experience it doesn't take much ambiguity to lead to differences of interpretation.

The core bit about when to declare Ferocious Attack is pretty straightforward (how else could it work?), but some of the corner bits are pretty ambigous.

Just to get this straight: You guys think that Ferocius Attack is a "modifier" declared (out of sequence) before rolling initiative, it's bonuses/penalties apply from then until your second action after declaration, and it has no effect on what actions you can take when your initiative comes around (i.e. you can ready an attack with ferocious bonuses, can pass in order to take an attack with ferocious bonuses later, or can do any other action)?

Another question, presumably the modifiers stack with those from charging?

 

[Sutek]

Nothing is ambiguous, with Ferocious attack anyway. Other parts of existence .... I have no comment on.

First round of any combat, either declare Ferocious Attack, or don't. If you do, you get all the bonuses and penalties as states in the description for that first round of combat. Subsequent rounds, you're back to normal.

Hope that helps your edges... :lol:

 

[argo]

I'm aware it's on the first round of combat. Even on the first round of combat you roll initiative before declaring what you're going to do, and in general only declare what you're doing when you actually act.

These points are all entirely ambigous as written in the rules.

What you forget is that, unlike some other systems, d20 has no "decleration phase" durring initiative. You decide what you are going to do whenever you want, typically you don't declare your action until your turn in initative but that is just custom, not RAW. You can even declare an action and later change your mind (assuming you haven't taken that action already) nothing is final until the dice hit the table. So yes, you can declare that you are using Fericious Attack before rolling init because there is no other phase durring your turn reserved for such declerations.

The exception is Special Initiative Actions (namely Delay and Ready) which do have rules about when you can declare them and how much freedom you have to change your mind. But that is why they call them "Special" :wink:

 

[Sutek]

Exactly. Because this is an ability that alters Initiative, you it then logically must preempt the initiative roll. Since the results of the Fericious Attack only modify the character for the first round of combat, it's not too abusive and doesn't mess up the rest of the round.

Interestingly, and I'm been mulling this one over a bit, a character couldn't even declare a Delay at the start of the round to cause the Ferocious Attack to come later, because the declaration to start a Ferocious Attack has to be declared "at the start of any combat". That in and of itself indicates that the declaration is made before anything else that round, including initiative rolls.

 

[Anonymous]

The fact that you two need to invent technical terms, use phrases like "logicall must" or explain yourselves at all rather than just point to a segment of the rules IMHO is conclusive proof that the rules are indeed ambigous on this point.

There are alternate interpretations, regardless of your attempts to read the text the way you already think things work. Now, it happens that our intreptations are the same, but they're purely subjective. For example, the assumption that Ferocius Attack isn't actually an Attack.

 

[SableWyvern]

I don't think Sutek's views are particularly subjective. Take the rules as literally written:

- On the first round of any combat, he may declare a ferocious attack.

Nothing vague there, let's move on.

- He gains a +2 bonus to his Initiative check ...

Note that the bonus is to the initiative check, not the Initiative result. Therefore, the ability must be employed before Initiative is rolled.

- ... and all melee attack and damage rolls that round.

There is no specification that the character needs to take an attack action. A Ferocious Attack is defined by it's description, hence it is not an attack in the sense of "melee attack" "attack action" or "attack roll". The term Ferocious Attack is apt regardless, because the ability is most useful in conjunction with an attack action.

Doesn't seem vague at all to me, or particularly open to interpretation. I would see disallowing Ferocious Attack to be used to assist a speedy retreat as a valid house rule, although strictly speaking there is nothing stopping a character from making such a choice.

 

[Sutek]

The fact that you two need to invent technical terms, use phrases like "logicall must" or explain yourselves at all rather than just point to a segment of the rules IMHO is conclusive proof that the rules are indeed ambigous on this point.

Read it.

"on the first round"

INIT checks take plae at the sart of a battle, before the firsat round, but and action would have to be declared after the first round starts. You roll INIT, decide to use the Ferocity or lose it, and then proceed with the first round.

I will suggest that if you want to Troll and be snide, the least you could do is sign in or join the board ... guest.

I was just reiterating above that to Delay it is impossible because (A) it has to be declared at the onset of the first round, before things get underway, so that the modifiers can be applied to INIT properly and (B) Delaying it would cause it to occur on (duh) another round besides the first round.

There are alternate interpretations, regardless of your attempts to read the text the way you already think things work. Now, it happens that our intreptations are the same, but they're purely subjective. For example, the assumption that Ferocius Attack isn't actually an Attack.

Correct, there are alternate interpretations, but any of them other than the ones that state that the Ferociouis Charge occurs only on the first round of combat modifying that round's INIT, DV and Att+ are incorrect. It's as simple as that.

And Ferocious Attack is not an attack, which would be a standard action. Instead, it modifies a standard attack action (I say that only because FullAtt actions on first round are extremely rare, although presumably possible). I never said that FA was an action, because it is not. I said it is imposible toi Delay the action that FA modifies.

 

[SuperBeast]

Well, Sutek, I must disagree with the following :

INIT checks take plae at the sart of a battle, before the firsat round, but and action would have to be declared after the first round starts. You roll INIT, decide to use the Ferocity or lose it, and then proceed with the first round.

Did we not just think that you had to declare your FA before rolling INIT? Here is some abiguity.

Also your point on delaying your FA action is false. If I decide to use FA, and then decide to delay my action by say '10', then I go later in the same first round, not the next round. So it seems to me, that I could delay my action. As well as I could ready an action while using FA. If the condition that I ready my action on happens in the first round, then I get my FA bounuses, otherwise, it moves to the next round and I lose my FA bonuses.

So it seems to me that I should be able to Delay or Ready an action while using FA, but as the rules are written it is a little ambigous.

 

[cornelius]

Sorry to interrupt guys , but what does " Troll " mean in this context ? I've seen it used a few times recently but I'm none the wiser .

 

[Sutek]

Someone inciting resposes with beligerent or otherwise off-toic posts but with little contribution to the over-all discussion or out of an apparent intent to start an argument. Being beligerent or snide as a guest poster qualifies, IMO.

Trolls lurk under bridges and then pop out and cause trouble for no apparent reason. The metaphor holds... 8)

 

[Sutek]

Also your point on delaying your FA action is false. If I decide to use FA, and then decide to delay my action by say '10', then I go later in the same first round, not the next round. So it seems to me, that I could delay my action. As well as I could ready an action while using FA. If the condition that I ready my action on happens in the first round, then I get my FA bounuses, otherwise, it moves to the next round and I lose my FA bonuses.

So it seems to me that I should be able to Delay or Ready an action while using FA, but as the rules are written it is a little ambigous.

I stand corrected. I don't know why I didnt' think of it that way, but you are correct. The INIT count changes, but the round does not. Sorry about that. Delay and Ready woul dindeed be options in regards to the Standard Action which the FA is intended to modify. It's important to note still, however, that the FA is not an Action in and of itself - it just augments the Standard Attack Action.

You still roll INIT first because that's what it says to do in the Combat chapter - you roll INIT at the start of a combat. You declare the FA at the beginning of the first round of combat, but that's after everyone knows there's a combat going on, so INIT woul dhave to have been determined. There's really no ambiguity thhough If you get a 15 INT and the GM says "anyone after 20?" you say "yeah, but I'm using FA so instead of on 15, I go on 17." Our group assigns a person to be the record keeper and they write down all the INIT asignments, keep track of damage, etc. for the party. This keeps us from running into altering INIT situations or whatever very effectively.

I suppose I have a clearer idea of how this fallsa together by virtue of being familiar with the Stargate Fluid Initiative system where INIT count changes every single round depending on what actions were taken the previous round. It seems very straight forward to me.

 

[argo]

The fact that you two need to invent technical terms, use phrases like "logicall must" or explain yourselves at all rather than just point to a segment of the rules IMHO is conclusive proof that the rules are indeed ambigous on this point.

There are alternate interpretations, regardless of your attempts to read the text the way you already think things work. Now, it happens that our intreptations are the same, but they're purely subjective. For example, the assumption that Ferocius Attack isn't actually an Attack.

Completly backwards.

The problem here isn't that the rules are ambigious. It is that you have assumed the existance of a rule that, well, doesnt' exist.

Your argument can be reduced to:
Statement 1: you cannot declare actions before your turn in Initiative order.
Statement 2: you must declare a use of feoicious attack before your first turn in initiative order (specifically before you even roll Init).
Conclusion: There is a conflict with the rules!

Now that would be a fine conclusion except for the fact that Statment 1 is false. Nowhere in the RAW is there any sort of restriction on when any character can declare anything. Still think I'm wrong? Quote me a passage that says otherwise. It is customary that characters wait until their turn to declare actions but that is just that; custom, not RAW.

It is hard to prove a negative. I cannot "just point to a segment of the rules" to prove that a rule doen't exist. Luckily I dont' have to. Because I am arguing a negative I have the luxury of simply declaring that the rule doesn't exist, it is your burden to produce it if it does.

Later.

 

[Sutek]

:lol:

are we having fun or what, argo?