Feedback requested on mini gun stats I've made up

[5h4ne]

Hello all.

++INTRO++

This is my first posting here. I'm new to Mongoose Traveller, and I only played Traveller before many years ago, for a couple of sessions - I can't remember the version though.

++INTRO - end++

OK, so I'm going to be running a short intro session tomorrow night. One of the players requested a mini gun, and I can't see a reason not to let him have one. So I made up some stats:

Mini Gun: Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) Damage 4d6, TL7, Recoil 3, Auto 6, Magazine 80. Ranges as per Rifle.

Do these seem reasonable? I've tried to balance power vs recoil.
Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[Duroon]

I do believe a recoil like that is going to require a 15 strength to handle that gun, which is reasonable for what that is.

Usually a mini gun is mounted to a vehicle for maximum carnage.

 

[iainjcoleman]

My one quibble would be whether Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) is the appropriate skill. Would a Heavy Weapons specialism be more suitable?

 

[5h4ne]

My one quibble would be whether Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) is the appropriate skill. Would a Heavy Weapons specialism be more suitable?

Thanks for the replies!

I'd chosen recoil 3 so the char (who is STR 12) is gonna get slowed down by it. I did think of putting in more auto, but instead i picked the ACR rate with one dice more damage, on the basis of the ACR being 3 tech levels above the mini-gun and therefore technology advancing to give a lot less recoil for the same rate of fire, with a reduced damage.

On the same basis, I chose Slug Rifle as this is the skill that the ACR uses, and the mini-gun (as far as i know) fires "slugs" as defined by the rule book.

I also considered that a comparable tech level heavy weapon is the rocket launcher, which deals out 5d6 damage at optimum radius.

However, I had considered it being a heavy weapon, so this is a fair comment Iain.
On the premise that characters are probably more likely to end up with more gun combat skill than they are heavy weapons, this could be another balance.

Maybe it'll get tested tomorrow night if the player decides to play with his new toy

 

[klingsor]

What is a minigun? A small, rifle calibre, electrically powered Gatling type MG?

If you are thinking of the one from the film Predator then that one was fiction, they require an external power source and are not suitable as hand-held weapons but are rather vehicle mounted due to the mass of the ammunition, the power requirements and the recoil. I believe one in 5.56 × 45mm NATO was made but was a bit useless - too heavy to be worthwhile with the relatively short ranged and low powered cartridge compared with the 7.62 × 51mm NATO version which did find a niche as a helicopter weapon.

One might be possible with better technology - perhaps a gauss gun with lower projectile mass and improved power storage/generation technology but is there a niche for such a weapon? On the other hand Reason in the Neal Stephenson novel Snow Crash was a very nice toy but again it did show the problems of such a weapon - it would have need a vehicle or battledress to make it truly portable.

 

[5h4ne]

I wasn't thinking of any gun in particular, probably just one of those ones in the films that makes a noise, whirs round alot and then sprays lots of bullets - which is probably embedded in a collective fantasy consciousness.

..maybe Rambo fired one in Rambo 2, I can't remember...

Anyway, it's whatever the player who requested it wants it to be, and as long as we all have fun playing while he's spraying bullets around and it doesn't unbalance game play too much, then it should be ok.

As for the one in Predator being fiction, well, so are jump drive equipped spaceships

I like the idea of a power pack though. Maybe I'll add that in so the gun powers down pretty rapidly if it's carried around, which could balance it if it gets too messy.

 

[zozotroll]

Real miniguns need a lot more ammo than that. With an RPM between300-600, they will burn through that amount in seconds.

And if it cant out-auto a rifle, then it isnt much of a support weapon. Check Youtube, there are a couple of good videos of a mini using tracer, it looks like a solid bar of light contecting to the target.

A LMG has auto 6. They normaly fire at 550-750 RPM. With a mini going 5 to 10 times that an Auto 12 is not out of line at all. But you may not want to turn lose that much firepower in your game.

Just for fun scale it up to a GAU-8.

 

[Shiloh]

Man-portable heavy weapons (which this is: it's a bunch of LMGs strapped together, in essence) should be the province of battledress-equipped/full cyborg troops. The reason not to let your player have it is because it is over-the-top silliness, which isn't what Traveller is usually about. Of course, it's your Traveller, but I fear you'll find you run out of room in the ruleset rather quickly.

 

[klingsor]

I am afraid he is quite right, a referee must know when to say 'no' - there is a time and a place for 'consider yes' and uber guns are not it. This is not Rifts.

 

[5h4ne]

Just for fun scale it up to a GAU-8.

Hmm, I quite like the idea of a gauss 8 style set of stats:

Mini Gun: Gun Combat (Heavy Weapon) Damage 4d6, TL7, Recoil 3, Auto 8, Magazine 160. Ranges as per Rifle.
Less than strength 12 means a -1DM per point a user's strength falls short.

It's only a try out game, so we'll see how it goes.

Man-portable heavy weapons (which this is: it's a bunch of LMGs strapped together, in essence) should be the province of battledress-equipped/full cyborg troops. The reason not to let your player have it is because it is over-the-top silliness, which isn't what Traveller is usually about. Of course, it's your Traveller, but I fear you'll find you run out of room in the ruleset rather quickly.

As for over the top silliness, I totally agree. To me, a game that includes Man-portable heavy weapons is over the top silliness.

In fact I detect a tongue in cheek writing style in some of the book:

P102 "The PGMP and FMGP are weapons of such unbelievable destructive potential that they are never deployed without due care and forethought - except by player characters".
and
P98 "..the club remains a popular and practical weapon wherever intelligent species gather."

As an aside, a player more experienced in Traveller than myself had mentioned it being rather "dry". Perhaps it's a reaction to that.

 

[5h4ne]

I am afraid he is quite right, a referee must know when to say 'no' - there is a time and a place for 'consider yes' and uber guns are not it. This is not Rifts.

I've never heard of "Rifts."

 

[Klaus Kipling]

It's also totally outperformed by the LMG, and in RL the minigun is a souped up MG.

In fact, the auto-cannon is effectively already the minigun.

What you got there is more like a light support weapon, like the RPK or L86A1 or Bren, not a minigun.

In pure mass terms, a 6 barreled rotary gun will be 6 times heavier than an assault rifle, so you're talking it weighing 24kg. That is most certainly a Heavy Weapon.

I would suggest your pc settles for an LMG, like Rambo in Rambo 2. Note, the weight is somewhat large in Mercenary; perhaps that's just the TL5 LMG. The FN Minimi is probably more like it, at 7kg. I'd allow as a ref for a pc to use slug rifle with that, if it was a handheld version.
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg17-e.htm

If he wants to be Jesse Ventura from Predator then, well, that's munchkinism.

By comparison, Arnie in T2 wields a heavy MG in the graveyard scene, not a minigun, and he is a suit of battle dress, with the meat on the outside!

 

[EDG]

Man-portable heavy weapons (which this is: it's a bunch of LMGs strapped together, in essence) should be the province of battledress-equipped/full cyborg troops. The reason not to let your player have it is because it is over-the-top silliness, which isn't what Traveller is usually about. Of course, it's your Traveller, but I fear you'll find you run out of room in the ruleset rather quickly.

Traveller is "about" whatever the GMs want it to be about. I don't see this as being any different from the other "silly" weapons in Mercenary, like the Frag gun or spinny-disk gun or ballistic plasma balls.


(note - this next bit isn't directed at anyone in particular)
People complain about how different Mongoose Traveller is to CT Traveller, but I think it's supposed to be different. It's not a carbon-copy, it's not a fossilised reproduction of a 30 year old game, it's branching out a bit (and it's also not just about the OTU anymore either) - and if that branching out means a few more gonzo weapons then so be it. I mean, what the hell are people going to make of armor-piercing ricochet rounds from Judge Dredd? . I think people either need to learn to accept that change, or go back to CT.

Either way, if a guy asks "hey can someone help me to get the stats for this to work", the answer is not "I think it's crap and shouldn't be in the game". Either help the guy out, or don't answer at all.

 

[5h4ne]

By comparison, Arnie in T2 wields a heavy MG in the graveyard scene, not a minigun, and he is a suit of battle dress, with the meat on the outside!

haha, cool.
Nice idea, I think for gameplay we'll go for the LMG approach as you suggest. I don't have Mercenary yet, so I'll probably stick with my original stats at the top of this thread.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

I don't see this as being any different from the other "silly" weapons in Mercenary, like the Frag gun or spinny-disk gun or ballistic plasma balls.

I think the "silliness" here (apart from spinny disks) is more to do with garbled text than anything else. I can 'chrome up' both the frag cannon and energy balls using a couple of different phrases and they'll not 'offend' any gunporn afficionado or grog.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

By comparison, Arnie in T2 wields a heavy MG in the graveyard scene, not a minigun, and he is a suit of battle dress, with the meat on the outside!

haha, cool.
Nice idea, I think for gameplay we'll go for the LMG approach as you suggest. I don't have Mercenary yet, so I'll probably stick with my original stats at the top of this thread.

Ya not far off with the stats you have anyway - figure the extra point of recoil for using it without the bipod.

 

[collins355]

Man-portable heavy weapons (which this is: it's a bunch of LMGs strapped together, in essence) should be the province of battledress-equipped/full cyborg troops. The reason not to let your player have it is because it is over-the-top silliness, which isn't what Traveller is usually about. Of course, it's your Traveller, but I fear you'll find you run out of room in the ruleset rather quickly.

Traveller is "about" whatever the GMs want it to be about. I don't see this as being any different from the other "silly" weapons in Mercenary, like the Frag gun or spinny-disk gun or ballistic plasma balls.


(note - this next bit isn't directed at anyone in particular)
People complain about how different Mongoose Traveller is to CT Traveller, but I think it's supposed to be different. It's not a carbon-copy, it's not a fossilised reproduction of a 30 year old game, it's branching out a bit (and it's also not just about the OTU anymore either) - and if that branching out means a few more gonzo weapons then so be it. I mean, what the hell are people going to make of armor-piercing ricochet rounds from Judge Dredd? . I think people either need to learn to accept that change, or go back to CT.

Either way, if a guy asks "hey can someone help me to get the stats for this to work", the answer is not "I think it's crap and shouldn't be in the game". Either help the guy out, or don't answer at all.

But there already were miniguns in all versions of Traveller up to MongTrav. And there are miniguns IRL, so this is not a fantasy weapon like the spinny disc thing and therefore people should be forgiven for referring to the mental image the use of the word 'minigun' calls forth. IRL and in previous versions of Traveller, a 'minigun' has been a support weapon for use from a vehicle for all the reasons previous posters outlined (power requirements, ammo use, recoil, etc, etc). Original poster displayed apparent ignorance of this, and it doesn't strike me as particularly rude to clear up his/her misconceptions.

Here we come to the crux of some people's problem with shifting Traveller too far into the Games Workshop science fantasy end of the spectrum. Previously Traveller had been at the harder science end of the spectrum, with attempts (OK, not always plausible under scrutiny) to justify design decisions by reference to scientific knowledge. Books like Fire, Fusion & Steel went to some lengths to detail a scientific basis for various Traveller technologies given plausible extrapolations of current knowledge.

If we now start to head in the 'bone crusha' or 'ork splatta' direction for weapons and other items then that is a design decision which may detract from Traveller's appeal to a certain group of gamers (although I acknowledge that it may increase the appeal to another group).

In the past designers have certainly tried to take Traveller in the direction of their perception of current gaming fashion, witness TNE and its 'dark future' spin on Traveller in an attempt to cash in on then-prevailing gaming fashions. This did not have a happy ending.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

In the past designers have certainly tried to take Traveller in the direction of their perception of current gaming fashion, witness TNE and its 'dark future' spin on Traveller in an attempt to cash in on then-prevailing gaming fashions. This did not have a happy ending.

But you're equating Traveller with the OTU, and that is NOT how Mongoose are doing it. The OTU remains the same, but Traveller will have to cope with "wackier" tropes like Lawgivers, Timebombs, and possibly (here's hoping ) Biochips. Not sure how the mutations stuff for Strontium Dog might sit with the purists.....

EDIT: Actually, it's not the OTU anymore, is it? The Third Imperium is the brand now. Dredd, 'Dog, B5, et al, will all be Official Traveller Universes.

 

[zozotroll]

to mention what happens when Starship Troopers comes out. If it follows the book instead of the crappy movie. Then the minigun sillyness will be because it is so light it cant hurt anything.

Individual troops packing Nuke bazookas are going to tilt the power scale in a dramatic fashion. I take my cues for powerarmor from ST and In Fury Born. It may not be OTU, but my players are happy with it.

 

[collins355]

to mention what happens when Starship Troopers comes out. If it follows the book instead of the crappy movie. Then the minigun sillyness will be because it is so light it cant hurt anything.

Individual troops packing Nuke bazookas are going to tilt the power scale in a dramatic fashion. I take my cues for powerarmor from ST and In Fury Born. It may not be OTU, but my players are happy with it.

Err, as with miniguns, backpack nuke missiles for battle dress troops have long been official canon in Traveller. Imperial Marines are equipped with them, for instance. They can be constructed in the design sequences from CT/Striker, TNE/FFS and T4 (and GURPS?). MegaTraveller, like Mongoose Traveller, seemed strangely bereft of tac missiles of any form.