External ordance

[phavoc]

anyone flying through combat zone runs the risk of being hit by a missile aimed at them by mistake ..... When elephants fight the grass gets trampled...

I can see why military forces would want to keep a tight grip on bolt on weapons pods, at least under our current situation. But if they allow ships to carry multi-megawatt lasers and missiles in turrets the issue becomes one of having the right paperwork in hand. logically anyone who can get permission t buy a standard weapon for a ship could get the permits to buy a bolt on pod. The issue today is that commercial vessels and aircraft are not allowed to be armed since the governments don't like the idea of a cargo ship shooting back during an inspection/seizure.

when properly maintained the pods could set on the dock, or strapped to a ship as reliably as an turret weapon, someone just has to go out and make sure the systems are functioning, check for faults and occasionally replace faulty hardware. the great thing about a VLS type pod is that if one missile fails, the control system just selects another missile, and fires it instead...the only side effect is that you have a dud missile you have to deal with later.( my suggestion for that instance was a prompt return to the manufacturing agency..with a harshly worded letter of complaint..and an offer to deliver it directly to the office by airdrop if they wish to inspect it...)

now if were a rack/rail type launcher you now have a dud missile on the rails, and cant use that rail until you remove the dud, or eject it...but that would only take a few moments with an automated system..so unless he missile was both a dud, and was somehow jammed on the rail, you would just lose a minute or two while the missile was dumped and a fresh one loaded. sine Combat turns are long enough to allow for that all yo would loose was ammo, not an attack opportunity...and someone yelling at the manufacturers agent next time they are in port.

The standard USN rail launchers have the capability of ejecting the dud overboard if needed. In some ways that's much safer than having a potentially hot one in your VLS bay, not really knowing what might set it off. You might lose 60 seconds or so, but it's probably far safer than the alternative with a VLS. I know my old MLRS rocket pods could be set off with the power of a 9volt battery. I never had a dud in one of mine, but if we did, the protocol was to drop the pod during a standard unload process. Nothing else you could do (well, you could invest in a few new pairs of drawers I suppose..

 

[wbnc]

The standard USN rail launchers have the capability of ejecting the dud overboard if needed. In some ways that's much safer than having a potentially hot one in your VLS bay, not really knowing what might set it off. You might lose 60 seconds or so, but it's probably far safer than the alternative with a VLS. I know my old MLRS rocket pods could be set off with the power of a 9volt battery. I never had a dud in one of mine, but if we did, the protocol was to drop the pod during a standard unload process. Nothing else you could do (well, you could invest in a few new pairs of drawers I suppose..

due to past sudden unexpected, and potentially dangerous events, in my life I keep a spare set in my day pack at all times.

On a starship getting rid of a dud round would be easy..a compressed gas charge under the shipping container, or base-plate of the round could eject it fairly nicely...

 

[Condottiere]

Lasers and sandcasters present a known capability; you can only do so much damage with them.

Missiles do damage depending on their payload, and they can carry a nuclear warhead, so authorities will always more carefully examine certification, documentation and mark one eyeballing to ensure that they are kosher.

As regards to external ordnance, it's a rules issue, and you know who to lobby. You also have the perfect window.

 

[Anonymous]

If they check missile warheads they should check fusion reactors too. I don't think they do because Traveller's background doesn't fly unless you are prepared to accept certain incompatible assumptions.

 

[phavoc]

Lasers and sandcasters present a known capability; you can only do so much damage with them.

Missiles do damage depending on their payload, and they can carry a nuclear warhead, so authorities will always more carefully examine certification, documentation and mark one eyeballing to ensure that they are kosher.

As regards to external ordnance, it's a rules issue, and you know who to lobby. You also have the perfect window.

Anyone wanting to intentionally cause damage just needs to crash their spacecraft in a metropolitan area. Nukes are going to be out there, but they are expensive and using them by a rogue state just gets the hammer dropped on you by the Imperium. Terrorists would always be interested in one, but using just one pretty much will force your group so far underground they can never come back up for air.

I don't foresee any changes to accommodate external ordnance from an official point of view. It would be something that players come up with, or publish on a fan site.

 

[Condottiere]

Spacecraft tend to be rather large, and you'd assume that planetary defences are prepped to predict flight paths that are about to go on kamikaze runs, whereas with missiles, you could launch a salvo, and presumably if it's preplanned, the housings could be stealthed, and the launch could be achieved with minimal trace.

 

[wbnc]

Spacecraft tend to be rather large, and you'd assume that planetary defences are prepped to predict flight paths that are about to go on kamikaze runs, whereas with missiles, you could launch a salvo, and presumably if it's preplanned, the housings could be stealthed, and the launch could be achieved with minimal trace.

or as the ship makes it's approach to the planet, it kicks a couple of cargo containers full of heat shielded nickle iron projectiles out the cargo hatch and peels away sharply. air defense is going to be very busy shooting at the containers giving the ship a fractional chance of escape...if the containers are hit..they break up releasing their contents...if not they burn up on entry..releasing their contents.

if the people behind he attack are clever they can use an automated ship, or find someone fanatical enough to risk his neck in a pretty certain suicid mission.

a standard shipping container full of nickle iron, or tungsten rods would be as effective as an ortillery salvo when they hit the ground at mach 7.

considering how easy it is to weaponize a standard starship, even without anything as complex as a bolt on missile pod, I doubt they would even be allowed to take up an orbit tat would allow such tactics. Even if the ground and orbital guns hit the ship and turning it into scrap metal there is still a lot of scrap metal moving at high velocity in your orbital space that would have to be cleared or vaporized.

a 100 ton S-type, driving at full burn with it's cargo hold full of the previously mentioned rods would be a lethal projectile if turned at a Highport, or or orbital facility. It comes in on a normal approach, at a preset distance it then accelerates at it's maximum thrust in a path set up to intercept the station...an automated drone system could mimic the normal challenge /clearance communications,..and then make the targeting calculations....those are just a straight forward mathematical calculation.

If the suicide drone/ship was an hour out there would be very little time to scramble interceptors with the firepower to totally destroy the ship and it's cargo..so the station would still have to try and dodge 100dton worth of scrap metal.

that scenario makes a few dozen missiles in a disguised external cargo rack look rather easy to deal with.

 

[phavoc]

Spacecraft tend to be rather large, and you'd assume that planetary defences are prepped to predict flight paths that are about to go on kamikaze runs, whereas with missiles, you could launch a salvo, and presumably if it's preplanned, the housings could be stealthed, and the launch could be achieved with minimal trace.

The issue here is that even the 'normal' flight paths with a starship de-orbiting can cause massive damage on the ground. It's the nature of physics. What is up and coming in at high speed can do a lot of damage to the ground.

As wbnc points out, if one has ill intentions towards a planet there are many ways to inflict damage upon it with very low chances of discovery (at least until a planet invested in an expensive 360 detection system - and even then there are always the possibility of getting something through.

And the planet in question has to be willing to spend (and be capable of supporting) to build up the necessary orbital and atmospheric defenses. One can assume Imperial starports will have some defenses. But lower tech worlds, or poor worlds simply won't have the resources to do this without making a big commitment of resources.

All this assumes that people are going to go around doing terroristic orbital strikes, which I think would be rare. It would be like ISIS bombing say the Lincoln Memorial in DC. It wouldn't do much to the nation, but if you poke the bear enough you'll get bombed/invaded back in return till your organization is wiped out.

 

[wbnc]

Spacecraft tend to be rather large, and you'd assume that planetary defences are prepped to predict flight paths that are about to go on kamikaze runs, whereas with missiles, you could launch a salvo, and presumably if it's preplanned, the housings could be stealthed, and the launch could be achieved with minimal trace.

The issue here is that even the 'normal' flight paths with a starship de-orbiting can cause massive damage on the ground. It's the nature of physics. What is up and coming in at high speed can do a lot of damage to the ground.

As wbnc points out, if one has ill intentions towards a planet there are many ways to inflict damage upon it with very low chances of discovery (at least until a planet invested in an expensive 360 detection system - and even then there are always the possibility of getting something through.

And the planet in question has to be willing to spend (and be capable of supporting) to build up the necessary orbital and atmospheric defenses. One can assume Imperial starports will have some defenses. But lower tech worlds, or poor worlds simply won't have the resources to do this without making a big commitment of resources.

All this assumes that people are going to go around doing terroristic orbital strikes, which I think would be rare. It would be like ISIS bombing say the Lincoln Memorial in DC. It wouldn't do much to the nation, but if you poke the bear enough you'll get bombed/invaded back in return till your organization is wiped out.

the real threat wouldnt be from random acts of destruction If it were the first strike of a sustained campaign a coverl armed commercial ship firing off salvos of missiles and then crashing into a highport, scout base, or naval depot could cause a huge amount of disruption as part of the opening shots of a war, rebellion, or local insurgency...

if the first hhot is a precision covert trike using one of the tactics I mentioned the defenders would have a very hard time telling they were the victim of a planned strike rather than part of a coordinated military action. since it would take a week or more for them to learn that similar strikes were going on over a wide area the first sign of trouble could be he arrival of an assault force right scheduled to take place within hours or days of the covert strike.

If local defenses and administration are still trying to piece together the events that led to losing a fuel depot, highport or communication center they would be very hard pressed to respond. especially if there were several similar attacks against key targets in the system in rapid succession.

 

[phavoc]

the real threat wouldnt be from random acts of destruction If it were the first strike of a sustained campaign a coverl armed commercial ship firing off salvos of missiles and then crashing into a highport, scout base, or naval depot could cause a huge amount of disruption as part of the opening shots of a war, rebellion, or local insurgency...

if the first hhot is a precision covert trike using one of the tactics I mentioned the defenders would have a very hard time telling they were the victim of a planned strike rather than part of a coordinated military action. since it would take a week or more for them to learn that similar strikes were going on over a wide area the first sign of trouble could be he arrival of an assault force right scheduled to take place within hours or days of the covert strike.

If local defenses and administration are still trying to piece together the events that led to losing a fuel depot, highport or communication center they would be very hard pressed to respond. especially if there were several similar attacks against key targets in the system in rapid succession.

True. However the Zho and Imp's may not practice that sort of fighting on each other. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and it could be that massive strikes as such fall under the same MAD category that we have today with nukes (or any NBC weapons). Yah you can use them, but that means you'll end up on the receiving end as well.

Attackers usually don't want to damage orbitals since they want them, too. Or large-scale planetary destruction, as you are generally fighting to take over those same planetary centers. The history of the Sindal subsector indicates some of both (if you want to have a setting to play 2.0 in).

 

[phavoc]

the real threat wouldnt be from random acts of destruction If it were the first strike of a sustained campaign a coverl armed commercial ship firing off salvos of missiles and then crashing into a highport, scout base, or naval depot could cause a huge amount of disruption as part of the opening shots of a war, rebellion, or local insurgency...

if the first hhot is a precision covert trike using one of the tactics I mentioned the defenders would have a very hard time telling they were the victim of a planned strike rather than part of a coordinated military action. since it would take a week or more for them to learn that similar strikes were going on over a wide area the first sign of trouble could be he arrival of an assault force right scheduled to take place within hours or days of the covert strike.

If local defenses and administration are still trying to piece together the events that led to losing a fuel depot, highport or communication center they would be very hard pressed to respond. especially if there were several similar attacks against key targets in the system in rapid succession.

True. However the Zho and Imp's may not practice that sort of fighting on each other. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and it could be that massive strikes as such fall under the same MAD category that we have today with nukes (or any NBC weapons). Yah you can use them, but that means you'll end up on the receiving end as well.

Attackers usually don't want to damage orbitals since they want them, too. Or large-scale planetary destruction, as you are generally fighting to take over those same planetary centers. The history of the Sindal subsector indicates some of both (if you want to have a setting to play 2.0 in).

 

[wbnc]

You make a god point. Since niether major power is keen on total warfare. Since most Leaders are fairly sane, and looking to gain control and influence not purge space of the hated foe...

while scorched earth wouldn't be the primary focus, I can see occasional singing around the corners as being mutually acceptable.

IN a lot of the settings I run the mood isn't so hospitable between enemies...they do want to burn the other guy out of space, and the primary "badguys" tend to toss city smashers( sub kiloton only on inhabited worlds) around pretty freely....The subtitle of my main scenario is "Genocide Wars". Only the direct intervention, or threat of direct intervention, of a TL-20+ culture keeps the kids playing nice.

As yu pointed out that the threat of reciprocal action would keep most forces toeing a thin line when it came to the other major powers. A smaller power might out of sheer desperation resort to all out war to make the enemy reconsider the expense of continued hostilities. Basically making the war to expensive to fight, even if the Major power won they wouldn't be able to recoup the costs of the war. and the occasional Ideological war that is bound to crop up form time to time...I imagine a Solomani splinter group, might consider trashing a few major orbitals fair game if it drove the IMPS out.
you can almost imagine the conversation after such an attack.

"Sons Of Sol...nooooo we don't support their actions at all ..they are a radical group beyond our control...as a matter of fact we were just about to being a crackdown on their activities....Oh you found their base, In Our space!...That wont do, we'll see to it ourselves...No no..we can handle this little matter...internal security and all..but we appreciate you alerting us to the problem..Oh if you have any intel you''d like to share It would be appreciated."

 

[Condottiere]

Pilotage, which the noun pilot is related to.

In theory, there's nothing in approaching a starport that should be a navigation hazard, and the pilot onboard a spaceship should be able to manage.

In practice, the bigger ships that do plan to dock at a starport may be required to have a pilot provided by the local authorities at the steering wheel, while the dinkier boats have clear approach lanes that they have to keep to.

 

[wbnc]

Pilotage, which the noun pilot is related to.

In theory, there's nothing in approaching a starport that should be a navigation hazard, and the pilot onboard a spaceship should be able to manage.

In practice, the bigger ships that do plan to dock at a starport may be required to have a pilot provided by the local authorities at the steering wheel, while the dinkier boats have clear approach lanes that they have to keep to.

I would think that if you were going to pass anywhere near a restricted, or vital facility a couple of armed guards would also board with the pilot to make sure no one tries anything stupid/malicious.

any craft without an approved pilot on board would be routed away from anything that might react poorly to a collision, or weapons fire.

Heavily armed vessels would also probably receive close scrutiny. and a deep penetration scan to ensure they don't have concealed weapons mounts.

 

[AndrewW]

any craft without an approved pilot on board would be routed away from anything that might react poorly to a collision, or weapons fire.

That would include any planet with any sort of population (researcher center, cities, whatever), any orbiting facilities as well such as a highport.

 

[Condottiere]

Also, Mos Eisley may be the exception at having a downport in the centre of that conglomeration, likely having grown organically around it, since it's unlikely anyone has to pay insurance rates, except to Jabba.

Major downports are likely located in wastelands or desert(ed) areas, some distance away from metropolises.

 

[wbnc]

any craft without an approved pilot on board would be routed away from anything that might react poorly to a collision, or weapons fire.

That would include any planet with any sort of population (researcher center, cities, whatever), any orbiting facilities as well such as a highport.

There are a lot of places you cant fly aircraft for safety reasons, not because they expect someone to nose dive into a city on purpose...it's more a precaution against Murphy dropping a 747 in the middle of Yankee stadium.

So I can see regulations for a ship twice the size of a 747 armed with laser canon, and carrying around a fusion reactor to be a little tighter. If a 747 lands on an apartment block you loose the apartment block, a 400 ton fat trader crashes on an apartment block you loose several neighborhoods.

 

[phavoc]

If you look at the artwork for starports throughout the Traveller series you see massive skyscrapers just beyond the edge if the ports. It gives the impression that major starport are located downtown on planets.

I suspect most would be somewhat distant from major population centers, and the flight paths inbound and outbound designed to minimize travel over heavily populated areas. But who knows what they would do in the future as a town grew up around the starport.