Engineering 0

[MrUkpyr]

This came up at the last game I ran.

Does having Engineering-Electrical 2 mean you also have Engineering-0?

I said that understanding one type of Engineering, for example Jump Drive-1, would not automatically give you an Engineering-0 in Life Support or Power Plant.

Two of my players are RL engineers, and they disagreed, saying that the basics of engineering are universal and should apply across the board.

What do you think?

Thanks.

Martin

 

[Nathan Brazil]

See example in Traveller Core Rule Book:

Some skills have specialities – specialised forms of that skill. A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities. For example, a character might have Engineer 0, allowing him to make any Engineer skill checks without an unskilled penalty. He might then gain a level in Engineer, giving him Engineer (Jump drives) 1. He would make all Engineer checks involving Jump drives at a +1 DM, but would make all other Engineer checks at a +0 DM. A character can have multiple specialities in a skill – an engineer might have Engineer (Jump drives) 1 and Engineer (power plant) 2. He would make checks related to Jump drives with a +1 DM, checks related to power plants with a +2 DM and all other Engineer checks with a +0 DM. - pg 6

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, that struck me too! Always a little confused with the wording about skill with specializations which I misread. I thought you lost the rank zero when you gained rank 1 though it seemed you lost a lot not having the -3 penalty for all sub-skills by having that rank 0.

I realized very recently when preparing a character for an upcoming campaign and noticed other players had both Rank 0 and separate higher ranks in the same skill and had the epiphany. My engineer is now ready. Bring me another broken drive!!

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

This came up at the last game I ran.

Does having Engineering-Electrical 2 mean you also have Engineering-0?

I said that understanding one type of Engineering, for example Jump Drive-1, would not automatically give you an Engineering-0 in Life Support or Power Plant.

Two of my players are RL engineers, and they disagreed, saying that the basics of engineering are universal and should apply across the board.

What do you think?

Thanks.

Martin

Power gamers, and people that mention their college backgrounds, will expect that Science 1 means that their character also has a skill of 0 in all 17 Science skills. Same with Gun Combat 1. They think that they have Gun Combat 0 for all guns. Even for (alien) guns that aren't listed in the book. I only use the specialized skills in the game, and don't use the old Classic Traveller generic skills.

 

[Infojunky]

I only use the specialized skills in the game, and don't use the old Classic Traveller generic skills.

That's ok Shawn everybodies Traveller game is different....

 

[Infojunky]

This came up at the last game I ran.

Does having Engineering-Electrical 2 mean you also have Engineering-0?

The answer is it depends, if you receive it initially as a background or basic training skill level zero then yes, if you receive a skill level then no you only have the specific speciality.

Note with a career change you could get the zero level skill as your basic training skill even if you already have a speciality in said skill.

Two of my players are RL engineers, and they disagreed, saying that the basics of engineering are universal and should apply across the board.

What do you think?

Smack both of them upside the head and tell them to get real.... Or just point out the rules....

 

[GypsyComet]

Two of my players are RL engineers, and they disagreed, saying that the basics of engineering are universal and should apply across the board.

You know two guys who work on trains?

While starship engineers, typified by Commander Montgomery Scott, are certainly University trained, they aren't likely to be on quite the same path as a BS Mechanical Engineer of the modern day. There ARE elements that run in common in that type of education, but ship's engineering has a lot of practical bits that many universities no longer consider white collar skills.

 

[dragoner]

This came up at the last game I ran.

Does having Engineering-Electrical 2 mean you also have Engineering-0?

I said that understanding one type of Engineering, for example Jump Drive-1, would not automatically give you an Engineering-0 in Life Support or Power Plant.

Two of my players are RL engineers, and they disagreed, saying that the basics of engineering are universal and should apply across the board.

What do you think?

Thanks.

Martin

Basically yes, I would say there is a cascade. If talking the principles of engineering, you are taught to look at things as "systems" which is across the board. Also that most organizations do job rotation: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/job-rotation.html as well as someone working in a engineering section for multiple terms would learn a lot of the specifics of each job, even as just a tech, and esp once they are O grade, as officers are supposed to have at least an idea about technical proficiencies involved in the entire section. This could be as simple as using various computer suites though.

Ultimately it is whatever works for you is best, imo.

 

[Hopeless]

Hold on just to clarify if they gain Enginnering, Science or Gun Combat at +0 before it being increased later so they get to pick a specialisation they have +0 in all of the relevant specialties assuming basic training but if they gain that at +1 instead of +0 then they only have the speciality and aren't considered to have basic training in that skill thereby don't have the basic knowledge of the other specialties?

Must admit never thought about it that way!

 

[Jacqual]

Hold on just to clarify if they gain Enginnering, Science or Gun Combat at +0 before it being increased later so they get to pick a specialisation they have +0 in all of the relevant specialties assuming basic training but if they gain that at +1 instead of +0 then they only have the speciality and aren't considered to have basic training in that skill thereby don't have the basic knowledge of the other specialties?

Must admit never thought about it that way!

So with that logic I will if I can help never specialize as I would rather do lots of something's, instead of just the 1 specialization so I will refuse to learn the specialization skill. Oh wait as given in the core rulebook example as given above I don't unlearn all that stuff, nevermind.

EDIT: Grammer as I was tired.

 

[alex_greene]

Power gamers, and people that mention their college backgrounds, will expect that Science 1 means that their character also has a skill of 0 in all 17 Science skills. Same with Gun Combat 1. They think that they have Gun Combat 0 for all guns. Even for (alien) guns that aren't listed in the book. I only use the specialized skills in the game, and don't use the old Classic Traveller generic skills.

If they have Life Science (biology)-1, it means they could effectively have Life Science-0 in all the other branches of Life Science. They would also need to learn Physical Science-0, Space Science-0 and Social Science-0 to learn the basic sciences in those other fields. Ditto for Art, Drive, Seafarer, Flyer, Engineer, Gun Combat, Melee Combat, Tactics and almost all the other cascade skills.

The only exception is Trade - there is no Trade-0, because you have to learn each Trade separately starting at Trade (cascade)-1 each time.

 

[Reynard]

Considering the simplicity of the skill system, letting a character have familiarity with groups of related sub skills isn't a bad idea. Shadowrun does something similar, you're generally good at a skill group and can be better at a particular sub skill. You stink at any skill not acquired.

Being able to have a basic understanding of a skill group to avoid the -3 just reflects cramming a lot into the skill rules without major mechanic complexity and makes what you acquired more important. For the engineering question, you are going to overall have a background in most aspects of 'engineering' from your schooling because you can't just understand Jump engine theory and application cold. You took all the courses in the curriculum (Engineering 0) but showed aptitude in Jump engines (Engineering/Jump 1). When you pull the trigger on a gun, you have a grasp how other guns work compared to someone who never really used one.

Be happy. Hey, you could be trying to decipher the Classic Traveller skill system!

 

[Reynard]

"The only exception is Trade - there is no Trade-0, because you have to learn each Trade separately starting at Trade (cascade)-1 each time."

It should be made clear from the description on page 59 that this skill's exception means you can be rank 0 but you still must specialize, in other words, Trade(Polymers) - 0.

 

[Infojunky]

Hold on just to clarify if they gain Enginnering, Science or Gun Combat at +0 before it being increased later so they get to pick a specialisation they have +0 in all of the relevant specialties assuming basic training but if they gain that at +1 instead of +0 then they only have the speciality and aren't considered to have basic training in that skill thereby don't have the basic knowledge of the other specialties?

Must admit never thought about it that way!

Yep, it took a try or two to figure that out. Also look at in relation to JoT....

 

[Ataraxzy]

RAW is that Skill(Speciality)1 grants Skill(Speciality)0 for every thing else.

I also grant GunCbt0 to everyone à la the CT rules.

 

[alex_greene]

This versatility could be the reason why players are in demand by so many Patrons: perhaps this versatility could only extend to them, and local NPCs simply don't have access to the benefits of this rule.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I only use the specialized skills in the game, and don't use the old Classic Traveller generic skills.

That's ok Shawn everybodies Traveller game is different....

Quite. If I ever run a game I'm going to use the CT-ism of using Engineering as one single skill, e.g. no separation between power plants, maneuver drives and so forth, Though I may call it "Engineering: Ship" just to separate it from civil engineering and electronics/mechanical.

 

[Infojunky]

Quite. If I ever run a game I'm going to use the CT-ism of using Engineering as one single skill, e.g. no separation between power plants, maneuver drives and so forth, Though I may call it "Engineering: Ship" just to separate it from civil engineering and electronics/mechanical.

I was considering the same, though was going to go with Engineering: Drives.

I also am serious considering Mechanical as another specialty of Engineering as well....

 

[Jame Rowe]

Quite. If I ever run a game I'm going to use the CT-ism of using Engineering as one single skill, e.g. no separation between power plants, maneuver drives and so forth, Though I may call it "Engineering: Ship" just to separate it from civil engineering and electronics/mechanical.

I was considering the same, though was going to go with Engineering: Drives.

I also am serious considering Mechanical as another specialty of Engineering as well....

I can see that, though I'd suggest that the Electronics and Mechanical specialties be more accessible across careers - your average member of the Citizen, Noble and Army/Marines careers, plus many specializations such as Merchant: Broker will be more likely to get those than Engineer:Ship or Drives.

An example of this would be a Citizen: Colonist or an Army: Infantry learning how to repair an air/raft and gaining the Mechanic skill for it.

 

[Infojunky]

I can see that, though I'd suggest that the Electronics and Mechanical specialties be more accessible across careers - your average member of the Citizen, Noble and Army/Marines careers, plus many specializations such as Merchant: Broker will be more likely to get those than Engineer:Ship or Drives.

An example of this would be a Citizen: Colonist or an Army: Infantry learning how to repair an air/raft and gaining the Mechanic skill for it.

I am not taking them away from any place they already were, just adding a option under one skill.