Empty Hex Jumps....again

[RandyT0001]

"History of the Imperium" was a seperate eight page supplement included in the second edition of the game Imperium (1986?). It is not reprinted in the big floppy books of the Classic Traveller Reprints series. FYI

 

[EDG]

I'm confused by the references to Imperium as indicating that EHJ are impossible. Doesn't Imperium state on page 6 of the 'History of the Imperium' that the Terrans placed intermediate refuelling supplies in order to use Jump-1 to get to Barnard's Star to meet the Vilani?

All it says on the subject is this:

An expedition placed intermediate refueling supplies and travelled to a nearby system, Barnard's Star, early in 2113.

It says nothing about them jumping to empty space at all. Just that they placed refuelling supplies somewhere. For all anyone knows, they could have used sublight drives to get to the refuelling depot, which was close enough to jump out to Barnard from. Or it could have been a brown dwarf.

If canon doesn't explicitly say how something works, then any explanation that works is acceptable, not just the "obvious" one. And given the rules of the actual game don't allow for empty hex jumps, it would very much appear that they were NOT possible in that era.


Plus, it also says this about J1 immediately beforehand:

Initially, [J1] was used only within the solar system: Since the range of a jump-1 drive was insufficient to reach the nearest stars, it was used only for intrasystem jumps. Terrans remained restricted to the solar system for 43 years, and this long incubation period worked in their favor. They developed an extensive variety of jump-capable ships and had produced them for decades when they finally ventured to a neighboring star system.

The implication being that the Terrans couldn't actually leave the Sol system using J1.

(and frankly, this whole mess could be eliminated if one just says that the Terrans didn't leave Sol til they invented J2).

 

[collins355]

All it says on the subject is this:

An expedition placed intermediate refueling supplies and travelled to a nearby system, Barnard's Star, early in 2113.

It says nothing about them jumping to empty space at all. Just that they placed refuelling supplies somewhere. For all anyone knows, they could have used sublight drives to get to the refuelling depot, which was close enough to jump out to Barnard from. Or it could have been a brown dwarf.

But I'm confused as to why they needed to create an 'intermediate' 'refueling' point if what you suggest actually was what took place. Travelling at sublight speeds they'd still have their jump fuel ready when they got within J-1 range of Barnard's Star and could jump then (see page 10 of the main rules, 'Tankers' subhead, for confirmation that sublight movement does not use jump fuel in Imperium). The only need for refueling would be if they'd jumped in and their jump tanks were empty of fuel. And of course Megatraveller Solomani & Aslan says they 'jumped' for Barnard's Star.

I'm not sure that the movement rules of the game Imperium can really reveal much, given that jump movement is only permitted along 'tram tracks' between systems and that movement by jumps is essentially unlimited along those 'tram tracks'. Doesn't sound like Traveller canon jump.

 

[EDG]

But I'm confused as to why they needed to create an 'intermediate' 'refueling' point if what you suggest actually was what took place. Travelling at sublight speeds they'd still have their jump fuel ready when they got within J-1 range of Barnard's Star and could jump then (see page 10 of the main rules, 'Tankers' subhead, for confirmation that sublight movement does not use jump fuel in Imperium). The only need for refueling would be if they'd jumped in and their jump tanks were empty of fuel.

That's an internal contradiction then. The Imperium rules explicitly state (on page 5) that:

A jump must be from a stellar hex to a stellar hex. It may not begin or end on a portion of a jump route lying between the ends.

That removes any doubt about whether ESJ's were possible or not - they weren't. The rules explicitly state state that they're not possible and that you need a star (at least) at both ends to jump, so in CT/MT/TNE Canon you cannot jump into empty hexes in the IW era.

There are implications elsewhere that this is true too. There's also a bit on page 9 of the rules that says if combat occurs in deep space (i.e. an empty hex) then neither side can break off, implying that it's not possible to jump out from an empty hex. That section on Tankers that you quoted says that sublight travel doesn't use fuel - if the implication is that the refuelling depot was to refuel jump drives, then that contradicts everything else in the rules.

And of course Megatraveller Solomani & Aslan says they 'jumped' for Barnard's Star.

And that's all it says. It doesn't say "jumped from Sol to Barnard's Star"

I'm not sure that the movement rules of the game Imperium can really reveal much, given that jump movement is only permitted along 'tram tracks' between systems and that movement by jumps is essentially unlimited along those 'tram tracks'. Doesn't sound like Traveller canon jump.

Sounds exactly like Traveller canon to me, for this era.


The unassailable facts are what canon explicitly states here:

1) Jumps were only possible in the Imperium era between two stellar masses.
2) Jump was not possible into a hex that did not contain a stellar mass.
3) Sublight was the only way to cross empty hexes, and did not use fuel.

Those are right there in black and white, and are not in doubt.

SJG have not contradicted any of that in GT:IW - they expanded it though to suggest that jump was also possible into hexes that contained sub-stellar masses (which neatly ties into current understanding of the universe, in which we've discovered that brown dwarfs are plentiful since Imperium was written and thus makes things more realistic).


Dark Nebula (on page 16) says:

Jump Technology: The use of the exploration ship within the area of the Dark Nebula has resulted in increased understanding of the theory of jump drives, and can be used to enhance jump capabilities. Any of the player's ships may now jump up to four hexes without using a printed jump route [...]

"Printed jump routes" go from star to star. If you can now (in the Border Wars era) use jump drives without a jump route, you can jump to or from a hex that doesn't have a star in it. Therefore the limitations of Imperium no longer apply in (and presumably after) the DN era, which agrees with all the canon that says that EHJ's are possible in later eras .

That's it. The "problem" is solved, because it never existed in the first place.

I really don't get what's so bad about IW saying that EHJ's weren't possible in that era (and adding the capability to jump into a hex containing a substellar mass) and for a later product to say that they were. It doesn't contradict anything else that's ever been said on the subject, and it doesn't contradict anything set in any other era where EHJ's are known to be possible. There is no contradiction here at all.

 

[collins355]

That seems clear, thanks.

The 'problem' I think, was how the Terrans got to Barnard's Star to spark the 1stIW if there were no EHJs until the Border Wars. GT IW resolves that issue by suggesting a brown dwarf is used. Given the commonality of those stellar objects the obvious question arises - why can't they be used elsewhere to enable jump-1 routes to be established across otherwise empty space? After all, the Terrans must have used the proposed brown dwarf link to Barnard's Star extensively until they developed jump-2. And the raging IWs would have provided plenty of incentive to continue with the practice elsewhere.

 

[EDG]

That seems clear, thanks.

Yer welcome.

The 'problem' I think, was how the Terrans got to Barnard's Star to spark the 1stIW if there were no EHJs until the Border Wars. GT IW resolves that issue by suggesting a brown dwarf is used. Given the commonality of those stellar objects the obvious question arises - why can't they be used elsewhere to enable jump-1 routes to be established across otherwise empty space? After all, the Terrans must have used the proposed brown dwarf link to Barnard's Star extensively until they developed jump-2. And the raging IWs would have provided plenty of incentive to continue with the practice elsewhere.

Well the Terrans developed J2 after the 1st IW, and the 1st IW seems to have taken place entirely in the Barnard system. After that, they invented J2 and didn't need the stepping stone anymore.

The question of "where are the BDs" is a valid one, but entirely unrelated to the assertion (by some) that GT:IW contradicts Traveller canon (it doesn't, as I have just shown). The standard explanation is that once J2 was invented, those 'stepping stone' BDs just weren't needed anymore, and the ports were moved to systems with stars and more habitable planets (and resources) on them. There's an argument that they'd still be useful for J1-ships though, and I agree that if that's the case then they probably should be on the map still.

But again, that's a whole different issue to whether deep space jumps are canon or not (in whatever era). It's not a setting-breaker though, not in the same way as allowing DSJs in the IW era (because if they were, the IWs would have transpired totally differently).

 

[RandyT0001]

If you have GT:IW it tells the story of how Terra found a rogue planet (probably airless since hydrogen had to be brought in to create a fueling depot) and made the jump to Bernard's star. It's on p.22-23. On p22 it says that the mathemathics of jump seem to imply that empty space jumps were impossible.

Now as to why this rogue planet (and dwarves) is not listed on the maps I have some thoughts about that.
1. For the 3rd Imperiums Scout Service only stars are indicated on the maps. Brown dwarves don't fuse hydrogen so they aren't indicated as stars. Obviously rogue planets aren't stars either and are not marked on the map. By the time of the 3rd Imperium deep space jumps into empty space are possible so it's not necessary to indicate dwarves/rogue planets for jump-1 limited starships.
2. For GT:IW it is not shown on the map so that the ref can decide if he wants the rogue planet in hex 1826 or 1927. This is a metagame decision and SJG wanted to allow refs to make it for their particular TU's. (I prefer 1927 since it allows travel to the Prometheus main (includes Junction, Hades, Midway, etc.) by existing jump 1 ships already built by the Terrans even after the start of the IW's so those colonies can be started and developed. As time goes by these ships are replaced by new ships equipped with jump 2 drives as economics allow.)

YMMV

 

[far-trader]

...Dark Nebula (on page 16) says:

Jump Technology: The use of the exploration ship within the area of the Dark Nebula has resulted in increased understanding of the theory of jump drives, and can be used to enhance jump capabilities. Any of the player's ships may now jump up to four hexes without using a printed jump route [...]

"Printed jump routes" go from star to star. If you can now (in the Border Wars era) use jump drives without a jump route, you can jump to or from a hex that doesn't have a star in it. Therefore the limitations of Imperium no longer apply in (and presumably after) the DN era, which agrees with all the canon that says that EHJ's are possible in later eras .

That's it. The "problem" is solved, because it never existed in the first place.

Wrong.

You're (choosing or unconsciously) ignoring the rules preceding the Dark Nebula bit that are identical to those in Imperium. No jumps except stellar hex to stellar hex. Period. The only thing the exploration ships give you is the ability to go off route, to create your own routes, but still by implication of the rules, stellar hex to stellar hex.

Right after your bit above from DN:

Exploration Ships: Exploration ships must be used to explore the jump routes of the Dark Nebula before other ships may use these routes. Any number of ships may accompany the exploration ship while it is doing so. When an exploration ship uses a jump route in the Dark Nebula previously unexplored by that player, the ship (and all ships accompanying it) must cease movement for the rest of the phase. The jump route is now explored, and the player may treat it exactly as any other jump route for the rest of the game.

Note the talk of jump routes, which are defined earlier in the rules as stellar hex to stellar hex and NOT redefined here to mean anything else, like empty hexes.

Now the "problem" is solved, because it never existed since EHJ were NEVER allowed

 

[captainjack23]

Now the "problem" is solved, because it never existed since EHJ were NEVER allowed

well and good ! We are right back to where I started this discussion oh so many poss ago....and now that some of us here are in agreement that the mass-mass jump is canon, can those who aren't let the discussion around those pesky calibration points continue ? Perhaps, consider in a wacky world where GTIW is canon, the Vilani EJH issue would still need resolution....

For consoidation, I'll repost my suggestion here.....

Note as suggested: in reality the below is canon neutral both with regards to the canon status of GTIW, Imperium and various other edition statements about jump.

The mass-mass jump idea in GTIW does go quite a ways to explaining how the interstellar wars period (modeled in Imperium) worked out the way it did; but

1. it needs some way to explain how the Vilanii crossed empty hexes to get where they had to historically go with only J1.

2. any such solution also needs to explain where all those damned useful connector points are now -as they sure aren't on the maps.

My general suggestion is that bodies that are not large enough to support a self-sustaining fusion reaction are significantly worse endpoints for mass-mass jumps, and thus a high risk situation; but one that cannot be entirely avoided; most merchants wouldn't touch 'em, and most significant military assets are too valuble except in absolute desperation. When an EHJ solution becomes available, and turns out to be safer and more reliable, the brown dwarf jumps go away as seriously not worth the risk.

The key addition to the information presented in GTIW is minor, and actually a clarification: that the new EHJ math is an addition to jump tech, rather than replacing the mass-mass jump calculations; and the EHJ math is only applicable to jumps involving one or more empty hexes.

Jumping mass to mass uses the same calculations as in the IW period; and in fact, with EHJ math, one would tend to avoid the old low mass jump points, so as to minimize risks.

 

[EDG]

You're (choosing or unconsciously) ignoring the rules preceding the Dark Nebula bit that are identical to those in Imperium. No jumps except stellar hex to stellar hex. Period. The only thing the exploration ships give you is the ability to go off route, to create your own routes, but still by implication of the rules, stellar hex to stellar hex.

Right after your bit above from DN:

Exploration Ships: Exploration ships must be used to explore the jump routes of the Dark Nebula before other ships may use these routes. Any number of ships may accompany the exploration ship while it is doing so. When an exploration ship uses a jump route in the Dark Nebula previously unexplored by that player, the ship (and all ships accompanying it) must cease movement for the rest of the phase. The jump route is now explored, and the player may treat it exactly as any other jump route for the rest of the game.

Note the talk of jump routes, which are defined earlier in the rules as stellar hex to stellar hex and NOT redefined here to mean anything else, like empty hexes.

Well to be completely accurate, the Exploration Ship bit says that they 'activate' printed jump routes, and the Jump Tech bit says that any of the players ships can jump up to four hexes without using a printed jump routes (because the Exploration Ship has resulted in an increased understanding of the theory of jump drives).

If anything, this agrees with GT:IW's approach. In the DN era, "increased understanding of the theory of jump drives" allows ALL ships to jump up to four hexes without using a printed jump route. It also doesn't specify that the target hex has to be occupied by a star.

Therefore, at one time it was impossible to jump to empty hexes, and later on it became possible to jump to empty hexes.


If that "Jump Technology" section wasn't there, then I'd agree with you. The DN rules otherwise appear to be identical to Imperium, with the exception that you need a special ship (the Exploration Ship) to go down a printed jump route before anything else. But that "Jump technology" section introduces a rule saying that ALL of the players ships can jump up to four hexes without using a jump route. And "without using a jump route" means "between two stars that don't have a printed route between them" and "between one star and empty hex" and "between two empty hexes" - thus, EDJs are allowed in DN. Since this rule is not in Imperium, that means that EDJ's are not allowed in Imperium.

The thing is, if one is going to argue about canon then one has to argue about whatever is explicitly stated in the rules, not any extra interpretations that one adds to what is said. DN states that all ships can jump without using a printed jump route (i.e. between two stars), and so it means exactly that. It doesn't mean that they can't jump into empty hexes, and it doesn't mean that they can't jump from empty hexes either, because the rule doesn't explicitly mention that those are not allowed. The one and only valid interpretation of that rule is that ships in DN can jump without using a jump route.

Now the "problem" is solved, because it never existed since EHJ were NEVER allowed

Well, we know that they are allowed in the "modern" (CT and beyond) era, so clearly something has changed in the intervening eras. DN offers an explanation for this - it wasn't possible once, it is possible now. And even if you don't buy that DN said that, it's inescapable that SOMETHING still had to change between the Imperium era and the CT era to allow EHJ's to be possible in the latter. So further argument about this aspect of the topic seems pointless to me, since there's no ambiguity here.

 

[RandyT0001]

1. it needs some way to explain how the Vilanii crossed empty hexes to get where they had to historically go with only J1.

The simplest solution is probably best. The simplest solution that I can think of is that the Vilani searched for and found brown dwarves and/or rogue planets and/or rogue planetoids (comets, etc.) in areas (hexes) that allowed them to bridge these gaps.

2. any such solution also needs to explain where all those damned useful connector points are now -as they sure aren't on the maps.

Did you not read my previous post about this?

Now as to why this rogue planet (and dwarves) is not listed on the maps I have some thoughts about that.
1. For the 3rd Imperiums Scout Service only stars are indicated on the maps. Brown dwarves don't fuse hydrogen so they aren't indicated as stars. Obviously rogue planets aren't stars either and are not marked on the map. By the time of the 3rd Imperium deep space jumps into empty space are possible so it's not necessary to indicate dwarves/rogue planets for jump-1 limited starships.
2. For GT:IW it is not shown on the map so that the ref can decide if he wants the rogue planet in hex 1826 or 1927. This is a metagame decision and SJG wanted to allow refs to make it for their particular TU's.

Since they aren't stars they are not going to be indicated on the maps. This allows refs to determine the exact location of each as necessary.

My general suggestion is that bodies that are not large enough to support a self-sustaining fusion reaction are significantly worse endpoints for mass-mass jumps, and thus a high risk situation; but one that cannot be entirely avoided; most merchants wouldn't touch 'em, and most significant military assets are too valuble except in absolute desperation.

I would disagree that smaller bodies are significantly more dangerous to jump to. On p 22 of GT:IW it talks about the prototype jump drive being fuel hogs and of limited range but they were still (apparently) readily used to jump to the outer planets and cometary cloud (Kuiper belt objects?/scattered disc objects?) of Sol. If it was such a higher risk then the Terrans would have just spent the extra days using standard maneuver drives to reach the outer planets and cometary cloud instead, especially considering that what travel did occur was probably scientific exploration and not resource exploitation. Therefore I cannot concur that jumps to sub-stellar masses are at greater risk than normal.

 

[captainjack23]

Did you not read my previous post about this?

Now as to why this rogue planet (and dwarves) is not listed on the maps I have some thoughts about that.
1. For the 3rd Imperiums Scout Service only stars are indicated on the maps. Brown dwarves don't fuse hydrogen so they aren't indicated as stars. Obviously rogue planets aren't stars either and are not marked on the map. By the time of the 3rd Imperium deep space jumps into empty space are possible so it's not necessary to indicate dwarves/rogue planets for jump-1 limited starships.
2. For GT:IW it is not shown on the map so that the ref can decide if he wants the rogue planet in hex 1826 or 1927. This is a metagame decision and SJG wanted to allow refs to make it for their particular TU's.

Since they aren't stars they are not going to be indicated on the maps. This allows refs to determine the exact location of each as necessary.

Yes, I read it, I just felt it was a bit too gamist an explanation for my taste. No criticism, just my own bias. Still if it works it works...It's a good idea,so here's one situation to test it against:
Maps are used by more than just the scout service -and if you have a J1 merchant, wouldn't you be likely to still use a dwarf that likely has fuel available (an old still maintained station or simply charted cometary debris in orbit around the dwarf) than take an empty hex jump of equal distance, which requires you trade cargo for fuel ?

While I agree that many of the points can be replaced by empty hex jumps , the oddity is that all of them are missing. Some will be just too useful.

My argument is that the maps are more like charts or portolans*, that show courses from port to port, or at worst to a source of fuel.

Every single marked star is a source of some kind of fuel, and that is about all they have in common other than being H burning stars...and since the consensus seems to be that there are less traveller stars than real world stars, the maps are omitting some; and in any case, the generation rules omit stars without a notable planetary system. So my call is that the scout maps omit H burning stars without a reasonably accessable fuel source (say, to a free trader, not just a long range sensor heavy scout cruiser).

Thus, a jump to a starless hex isn't an empty hex jump by later standards, if it has a fuel source (thus the craphole type X and E systems on the map); so I cant see (yet) why all the vilanii dwarf jump points would go away; and in any case, any J rated ship can use them -a fuel source at destination is a requirement for any ship over J4, and hard to imagine at J 3 and 4 for anything but couriers. So at the least the j2 and greater dwarf jumps should last the longest...




*Early Nautical maps that were designed less to model the terrain than to show where to go safely - in their case from port to port, or to a source of water. Very little else was indicated, and they distorted scale (distance) to show accurate direction.

 

[captainjack23]

I would disagree that smaller bodies are significantly more dangerous to jump to. On p 22 of GT:IW it talks about the prototype jump drive being fuel hogs and of limited range but they were still (apparently) readily used to jump to the outer planets and cometary cloud (Kuiper belt objects?/scattered disc objects?) of Sol. If it was such a higher risk then the Terrans would have just spent the extra days using standard maneuver drives to reach the outer planets and cometary cloud instead, especially considering that what travel did occur was probably scientific exploration and not resource exploitation. Therefore I cannot concur that jumps to sub-stellar masses are at greater risk than normal.

A good point, indeed. However, I would argue that those microjumps, or any jump within, a system would fall under the rubric of a mass-mass jump; They are all within .5 parsec of an H burning star.(assuming sol at the center of the hex).

The risk ? yes, it would be risky making the first jump out of the hex...that's what exploration is all about -and its not a guarantee of death in any case - just enough to make commercial or casual use less likely-which can be a fairly small risk, actually. The shuttle has a per unit failure rate of 40% over -26(ish) years -more than enough to deter anyone who needs commercial insurance......but its still flying (not a troll about shuttle pro/con: just an observation that different goals have different risk tolerences).

 

[far-trader]

Forget it EDG, you obviously have a different interpretation of "explicitly", one that is variable to suit your perception and argument here. So I won't bother arguing it.

COMPLETELY NON-CANON:

My choice has always been no empty hex jumps period. No cometary jump points, no mysterious solitary invisible dark body jumps, and certainly no truly empty space jumps. Just stellar to stellar, for very simple game driven reasons.

Where do you get fuel? Ignore extra carried fuel and the whole multiple jumps. Why? Well if you can fit enough fuel for an extra jump it's not much more to fit the extra drives and do it in one go in half the time with half the life support and all the rest. Yeah, yeah, "The (much vaunted) Traveller Adventure" says you can. Big deal. If they can the why doesn't everybody? Why would anyone build let alone finance a J2 Far-Trader if the J1 Free Trader can just carry extra fuel to do the same thing? The much simpler and more logical solution is just give the players a J2 version.

What happens if you misjump and end up in an empty hex? You roll new characters, joy. So all jumps imtu, even misjumps, always end in a stellar hex. At least that way the players have a believable chance of being rescued or getting themselves out of it.

And of course how different would all the space warfare in the OTU be without some chokepoints and needs of stellar systems. Very different if you think about it at all.

And do you really think the Solomani would have been stuck in Terra hex as long as they were if they could jump anywhere with J1? They would have been spreading out in every direction much sooner. So much simpler to just say they had some J2 capable ships when they finally broke out. Some, not enough to go everywhere, maybe even just one, an experimental model, for the first contact trip.

Empty hex jumps are stupid and game breaking in so many ways that I find them untenable. But hey, if you like them in your game go for it, and more power to you. If you can come up with a good reason why they weren't used, and then were used, but not by everybody, all the better.

 

[captainjack23]

If you can come up with a good reason why they weren't used, and then were used, but not by everybody, all the better.

...which kind of is the goal of these discussions ...?????

 

[EDG]

A good point, indeed. However, I would argue that those microjumps, or any jump within, a system would fall under the rubric of a mass-mass jump; They are all within .5 parsec of an H burning star.(assuming sol at the center of the hex).

So you need a stellar mass at the other end to jump to, except if you're jumping within the same system? That's awfully convenient all of a sudden. Traditionally the jump limit has been 100D, if you're beyond that then you're beyond the object's jump influence - so where's this 0.5 parsec thing suddenly come from?

Randy's right - there's no reason why jumping to a planet within a system from elsewhere in a system should be any harder than jumping to a planet outside of a system. If it was, then the Terrans sure as hell wouldn't have done it so much when they were doing their in-system jumps.

 

[EDG]

Forget it EDG, you obviously have a different interpretation of "explicitly", one that is variable to suit your perception and argument here.

I suggest you read the rules again then. There's one and only one definition of "explicit" and that's what's actually stated in the text - I'm not varying anything. I'm taking the rules as literally as they can be taken, but if you insist on expanding on things that aren't stated explicitly then you're the one screwing up the interpretation.

 

[captainjack23]

A good point, indeed. However, I would argue that those microjumps, or any jump within, a system would fall under the rubric of a mass-mass jump; They are all within .5 parsec of an H burning star.(assuming sol at the center of the hex).

So you need a stellar mass at the other end to jump to, except if you're jumping within the same system? That's awfully convenient all of a sudden. Traditionally the jump limit has been 100D, if you're beyond that then you're beyond the object's jump influence - so where's this 0.5 parsec thing suddenly come from?

The point .5 parsec thing is 1/2 a hex assuming sol at the center...its just saying "within the same hex". The 100D effect isn't stated as involved in mass-mass jump calculations, to my knowledge.

Randy's right - there's no reason why jumping to a planet within a system from elsewhere in a system should be any harder than jumping to a planet outside of a system. If it was, then the Terrans sure as hell wouldn't have done it so much when they were doing their in-system jumps.

Yes, he may be, barring a definitive statement from an author, but its not proven by that - there's a stellar mass at both ends of a microjump -it's just the same star...they are still separated by the week in hyperspace, and I can't see why the mass-mass has to apply only to two different stars -how does the math know ? If it fits the calculation, it fits the calculation.

 

[captainjack23]

A good point, indeed. However, I would argue that those microjumps, or any jump within, a system would fall under the rubric of a mass-mass jump; They are all within .5 parsec of an H burning star.(assuming sol at the center of the hex).

So you need a stellar mass at the other end to jump to, except if you're jumping within the same system? That's awfully convenient all of a sudden. Traditionally the jump limit has been 100D, if you're beyond that then you're beyond the object's jump influence - so where's this 0.5 parsec thing suddenly come from?

The point .5 parsec thing is 1/2 a hex assuming sol at the center...its just saying "within the same hex". The 100D effect isn't stated as involved in mass-mass jump calculations, to my knowledge.

Randy's right - there's no reason why jumping to a planet within a system from elsewhere in a system should be any harder than jumping to a planet outside of a system. If it was, then the Terrans sure as hell wouldn't have done it so much when they were doing their in-system jumps.

Yes, he may be, barring a definitive statement from an author, but its not proven by that - there's a stellar mass at both ends of a microjump -it's just the same star...they are still separated by the week in hyperspace, and I can't see why the mass-mass has to apply only to two different stars -how does the math know ? If it fits the calculation, it fits the calculation.

Ooops ! didn't even notice that was EDG before I posted. Sorry about that !

 

[far-trader]

The thing is, if one is going to argue about canon then one has to argue about whatever is explicitly stated in the rules, not any extra interpretations that one adds to what is said.

Agreed, and I didn't.

DN states that all ships can jump without using a printed jump route (i.e. between two stars), and so it means exactly that.

Exactly that, and no more. Your "(i.e. between stars)" is your interpretation. It means only that they can create new "jump routes" where none existed, and "jump routes" are already defined as ONLY stellar to stellar.

And what do the rules EXPLICITLY state "jump routes" are? Stellar to stellar. Period. Does it say anywhere, EXPLICITLY, that it means an empty hex at either or both ends?

It doesn't mean that they can't jump into empty hexes, and it doesn't mean that they can't jump from empty hexes either, because the rule doesn't explicitly mention that those are not allowed. The one and only valid interpretation of that rule is that ships in DN can jump without using a jump route.

Now who is (again/still) putting "extra interpretations... to what is said" here? Where exactly does it explicitly say anything about empty hexes?

Without an explicit statement to the effect that empty hexes are allowed you have to refer to the ruling that "jump routes" are stellar to stellar. So it does in fact mean that they can't jump into or out of empty hexes. By your own requirements of taking the rules as is and explicitly stated, without interpretation where they may be.

I really thought you'd see that when I noted it the first time, that's why when you replied I figured the argument was pointless. That's why I figure I just wasted my time here but I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that count.