Empty Hex Jumps....again

[captainjack23]

Okay, jump points again. How to cross empty hexes.

According to Gurps interstellar wars, one needed a mass at each end of a jump; so assuming that Gurps interstellar wars is canonical (or at least non-contradictory) , a substellar mass was postulated for the initial Terran Jump to Barnard. However, despite the usefulness of such a point, no evidence of it exists. Why ?

Here’s a solution, but it first depends on locating the hex that the mass is in.

Terra is in hex 1827 and Barnard in hex 1826
Prometheus is in 1928
Junction is in 1929

So, to make a J1 out of Terra that will lead to a system, there are only four candidates:
1826 ( jump to Barnard)
1927 (jump to Barnard or Promethius)
1928 (jump to Junction or Promethius)
1828 (jump to Junction or Promethius)


Since the initial jump was to barnard, the one discovered had to be 1826 or 1927 .

An important factor in deciding which hex involves the note about the UN/USE response to the USSF trip to Barnard…specifically, why Barnard and not Prometheus, an actual colony ? This could suggest that the hex is 1927, as only Barnard would be possible with 1826, and thus no choice exisited.
However, it may also be questioning the choice of target that guided the search. In this case what is being asked is “Why did the USSF look for a route to Barnard, and not Prometheus”. Thus, 1826 would be still be possible. Given the potential difficulties in finding a brown dwarf, it does seem that a target would be chosen first, to limit the search; and, for the reasons discussed in GTIW), the USSF was looking either for a route that led specifically to Barnard (the conspiracy or signals theories) or just one that didn’t have them go to Prometheus (the national pride theory). Either suggest that 1826 would have been a candidate hex for investigation.

I’d agree that 1927 may be the more likely hex, but I prefer 1826. Why ? Here’s why: 1826 is also within J2 of Agidda, a powerful Vilanii world in the early part of the IW period. 1826 would allow a J2 fleet to attack terra with a J1 fuel up (easily handled from tankers if 1826 had no accessible refueling). This would allow bypassing Barnard, which was one of the two key chokepoints in the IW period that defended Terra. Ooops !

So, here’s the scenario. USSF ship jumps to Barnard, discovers Vilanii and……Jump 2. Adoption of J2 by Terrans was presumably pretty rapid, and allows bypassing the jump point; so now, given the proximity to Agidda1826 is a liability more than anything. If lots of merchants are using it to jump to Barnard, and J2 ships can use it to jump to Agidda –and they will- the Vilanii will find out about it . Suddenly the front is 50% longer, and much closer.

So……all evidence of it is expunged from the terran records – and while it it’s very existence would be hard to eliminate, one would only have to destroy all records of the jump point’s location to render it useless….after all, just suspecting it exists is a far cry from being able to jump to it . Note too, 1826 doesn’t allow a jump to Prometheus; so there is little immediate loss to the Terran space program if it goes away –Likely, the information is only held by the USSF –who could unilaterally expunge it…and the USE or UN would be much more willing to abandon 1826 than a cheaper homegrown shortcut to Prometheus .

So, history, for foreign export at least, and likely at home, is rewritten to suggest that the jump to Barnard was unassisted – and the jump point never existed; and in any case, no one knows where it is with enough accuracy to go there. Conspiracy buffs and a very few astronomers aside, there is no incentive to find it again, and a powerful incentive to ensure that it stays lost.

The key is that this only would have to involve the Terrans…the Vilanii had so little interest in terra and contact, that they would likely buy any story we told them, particularly if it fit the vilanii view of how lesser civilizations develop. Instead of inventing J1, we bought J2 it from a random free trader, or were fed it by dissidents (the Vegans or the less hidebound renegades) or reverse engineered it from a wreck (Roswell option) until it was too late to find the truth. By the time they sat up and looked, we had captured Agidda, and the opportunity was gone.


[/i]

 

[rust]

While I do not know the setting well enough to be certain, this seems to
be a plausible explanation. And it is also a really fine story.

 

[captainjack23]

While I do not know the setting well enough to be certain, this seems to
be a plausible explanation. And it is also a really fine story.

I have to admit that that is a major part of why i like it..... :wink:

 

[klingsor]

New to me. I rather think this is not canon.

As far as I know it is entirely possible to jump into 'empty' deep space - one of the reasons a misjump is so dangerous as it can leave you light years from anywhere - out of fuel and out of luck and it will be years before anyone will pick up an SOS so better hope those low berths are are in good order. In fact this might make an interesting scenario seed, it would be entirely possible that several jumps would be required to find the lost ship and then you have to match its course and speed.

Another vaguely remembered reason for allowing deep space jumps are the demountable fuel bladders that allowed holds to carry fuel. A ship could make a jump then transfer the fuel from the bladders into her tanks and jump again - a useful way of allowing a jump-1 freighter to make a two parsec crossing. Now I mention it it does sound a little crazy, hydrogen is not a user friendly fuel but it must be possible to manage it in the OTU or the setting starts to fall apart.

I was impressed by the GURPS Traveller books but I think the last one I have is Starports.

 

[captainjack23]

New to me. I rather think this is not canon.

As far as I know it is entirely possible to jump into 'empty' deep space -

Absolutely Not Canon....yes indeed.

Its a continuation of a derailed thread on empty hex jumping, and the implications of that and of the GURPS Interstellar wars book -which for purposes of the discussion, I treated as canon.)*

The gist was, the interstellar wars period has problems if EHJumps are allowed; but adds a whole new set by requiring mass to mass jumps in that period. Discuss, using examples (25%).

Mostly, its a pretty interesting discussion, if massively canon-nerdy...






*It never was clear to me if it was or was not, both from the discussion here and on the SJG boards with Loren (coauthor) :wink:

 

[Fulminata]

I recognize the difficulties for the Interstellar War period if jumps into deep space are allowed, but it's pretty clear throughout Classic Traveller that they are. The entire Traveller Adventure centers around a J1 Fat Trader that gets around by using extra fuel tanks to jump into deep space before jumping on to its destination.

IIRC, Aslan Ihatei fleets are also specifically stated to have used deep space refuelling points to get across the rift.

If the folks over at SJG want to incorporate the idea that this wasn't possible in the IW period, then they also need to come up with an explanation as to why it was possible later.

Of course, an interesting question that comes up when deep space jumps are allowed is why the Imperium doesn't build a network of deep space stations to connect different mains together.

All that said, if they weren't allowed, the theory postulated at the beginning of this thread would be an interesting one

 

[EDG]

If the folks over at SJG want to incorporate the idea that this wasn't possible in the IW period, then they also need to come up with an explanation as to why it was possible later.

They did, and it's a perfectly reasonable explanation. The problem was computational - nobody had figured out a mathematical solution to jumping into a hex with no mass there in the IW Era (or previously). Later on (before the time the Aslan went exploring over their rift) someone had figured it out and DSJs became possible.

There really isn't a problem with this. Imperium didn't allow DSJs, and later eras did - so SJG came up with the obvious solution, which is that something must have changed in the interim. It doesn't contradict anything in canon at all, and if anything it actually reconciles two conflicting 'facts' about DSJs quite nicely - so quite why people are up in arms over it is beyond me.

Sure there is the problem of "so why aren't the links shown on the map?", but that's a much smaller problem than the consequences of allowing the Solomani and Vilani to ignore systems and jump through deep space at will to circumvent the battle lines (which is what would happen if DSJs had been allowed back then). The IWs would not (and could not) have turned out as described if that were the case.

Of course, an interesting question that comes up when deep space jumps are allowed is why the Imperium doesn't build a network of deep space stations to connect different mains together.

Funnily enough "calibration points" are used in TNE for exactly that reason. But I don't think anyone's presented a good reason as to why 'deep space stations' weren't commonly set up during the CT era. The technology is there, and the economic reasons are there for them too... and yet they're not there.

But personally I think that problem stems from allowing DSJs in the first place. I think things become much easier if they're not allowed at all.

 

[AKAramis]

New to me. I rather think this is not canon.

As far as I know it is entirely possible to jump into 'empty' deep space -

Absolutely Not Canon....yes indeed.

GT:___ is questionable, period, in its canonicity, based upon Marc's published definition of canon: GDW or IG is canon; nothing else is.

The Traveller Adventure is canon, published by GDW; it specifically requires empty hex jumps, with no penalty nor mention of non-fuel difficulties.

 

[captainjack23]

New to me. I rather think this is not canon.

As far as I know it is entirely possible to jump into 'empty' deep space -

Absolutely Not Canon....yes indeed.

GT:___ is questionable, period, in its canonicity, based upon Marc's published definition of canon: GDW or IG is canon; nothing else is.

The Traveller Adventure is canon, published by GDW; it specifically requires empty hex jumps, with no penalty nor mention of non-fuel difficulties.

Well, actually, and we never heard back from Loren (and who can blame him) but he thought that GTIW was produced as Canon -ie not under the alternate world timeline of GT.

But whatever. The discussion was meant to assume that GTIW was canon, or at least "worthy" ,and to see if the biggest contradiction could be explained.

 

[captainjack23]

Currently, it seems that the biggest problem with the mass/mass jumps as proposed in GTIW -and I have no problems with a technology changing or being refined-is the spread of the Vilanii Empire.

They either need a way to cross gaps, or we have to rely on them finding quite a few of the brown dwarfs, which according to EDG, are extremely hard to find....and then explain why they are all gone, every single one of them....

See, each and every one of the jump points would be bridging gaps, allowing access to species homeworlds, and connecting and extending J1 mains. They would be of tremendous economic importance. That not one of them remains, especially in a universe where J1 trade and travel is common and widespread seems impossible.

The issues dring the interstellar wars period are a bit less severe - I can live with the the Vilanii having retired the technology that was required to find the dwarfs, and not recovering it before it was a moot point. In any case, there aren't all that many potential hexes which would trash the strategic situation of the IW period (and its gameplay oriented simulation in Imperium).

Plus, with my above theory, it may be that the Terrans realized that they had more to lose than gain if they found (and used) another dwarf Jump point to get around the local Vilanii forces . It's the classic problem of asymmetrical warfare: they wouldn't conquer the vilanii by using it , just hurt them; but they sure could be conquered if the Vilanii got it.

One must assume that the sudden appearance of a fleet of Terran commerce raiders and assorted invasion forces inside the local Vilanii green zone would seem to be enough to make even the most hidebound apparatchik pay attention to the issue....and consider the possiblilty of finding the new jump point.


(and yes, my thinking has developed & changed on this since the beginning...it's why I started the discussion)

 

[simonh]

I still don't get how using a Jump Drive both requires that you be as far away as possible from any lareg masses, and yet now suddenly requires that you be near a large mass.

Maybe you just need to have a mass near the end point of the jump, but having one near the point of departure is what screws you up?

Simon Hibbs

 

[captainjack23]

I still don't get how using a Jump Drive both requires that you be as far away as possible from any lareg masses, and yet now suddenly requires that you be near a large mass.

Maybe you just need to have a mass near the end point of the jump, but having one near the point of departure is what screws you up?

Simon Hibbs

lLook at it this way - a lighthouse is a very useful thing to navigate by, but being too close is BAAAAD.

Perhaps whatever it is about masses that screw with jumps also makes it easier to locate in jumpspace ?

 

[lastbesthope]

I know other SF settings use the concept of 'mass shadows' extending into 'hyperspace'

LBH

 

[AKAramis]

Well, actually, and we never heard back from Loren (and who can blame him) but he thought that GTIW was produced as Canon -ie not under the alternate world timeline of GT.

But whatever. The discussion was meant to assume that GTIW was canon, or at least "worthy" ,and to see if the biggest contradiction could be explained.

Loren is, no offense to him, absolutely irrelevant. (And he said he wasn't certain, BTW.)

Marc Miller is the one and only definer of what is canon, until he sells the IP. Which leaves several wonderful contrary bits in a number of areas... leading to lots of heated internet debates.

 

[captainjack23]

Loren is, no offense to him, absolutely irrelevant. (And he said he wasn't certain, BTW.)

Marc Miller is the one and only definer of what is canon, until he sells the IP. Which leaves several wonderful contrary bits in a number of areas... leading to lots of heated internet debates.

Actually, no. Perhaps I was too vague - Loren indicated that he thought the discussion that he had with MWM that resulted in GTIW defined it as seperate from Gurps continuity. So it is from MWM if it is true. BUT....canonicity isnt what I was trying to discuss here, but rather the specific reconcilliation of GTIW with CT regardless of canon status. Ill move my further thoughts on reconcilliation to another thread, and we can discuss canonicity here.....

 

[rust]

... and we can discuss canonicity here.....

After all the discussions of the recent weeks, this would not be beating
a dead horse, it would be beating the fossil remains of the skeleton of
a prehistoric horse. :shock:

Besides, if Loren's opinion should be irrelevant, our opinions would be
even more so. 8)

 

[EDG]

Marc Miller is the one and only definer of what is canon, until he sells the IP. Which leaves several wonderful contrary bits in a number of areas... leading to lots of heated internet debates.

Yes, and we've all seen what happens when we leave it up to Marc to decide what is or isn't canon... everything's so clear and consistent now because of that! Oh wait, actually it's a bloody mess.

Marc may own the IP, but he's the one who is irrelevant here - largely through his continual inaction in these matters.

SJG spent a lot of time and effort on the IW book - it's also the only dedicated source written specifically about the timeline. If, despite its authoritativeness and specificity to the region, it's still not "canon" just because Marc has said nothing one way or another about it, then frankly Marc is effectively pissing in the faces of SJG to spite them. Have they done all that work just to have it dismissed and ignored by everybody? WTF does a licensee have to do to get their hard work approved as canon? What the hell are they even paying Marc money for if their work is meaningless? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

What IW says has to be canon for the IW era - just like what T20 or GtD says is canon for the Gateway area in 990 - because those are officially licensed products set in the OTU that Marc approved of and got published as a result. And more to the point, canon only really matters for people who publish stuff - everyone else can cheerfully ignore anything that Marc says. And if you're going to publish anything set in the GT:IW era, then it'll be a GT:IW product anyway and therefore has to be internally consistent with what its own corebook says. And since Marc has not produced a more authoritative source on those subjects, it strikes me as sheer insanity to say that they don't count for anything - they're pretty much all we've got on those subjects.

You can argue the legal nitpickery of it all until you're blue in the face, but frankly whether Marc has the final say or not is not relevant in practical terms. We have an officially licensed and very detailed IW book - that book therefore has to be the primary reference source of IW material. If it isn't, then it's a complete waste of time, space, and effort, along with everything else that SJG or QLI or Avenger or any other licensee has ever done.

If you want to be a "purist" and just go by what Marc says in your own games then go right ahead, but I think it's the height of stupidity to ignore perfectly good sources of officially licensed material that are right there in front of your face.

 

[captainjack23]

Captainjack frantically grabs his papers and, narrowly avoiding the dead horse, jumps on the next stage out of dodge....just in time.

 

[EDG]

After all the discussions of the recent weeks, this would not be beating a dead horse, it would be beating the fossil remains of the skeleton of a prehistoric horse. :shock:

I think the dead horse is this "Empty Hex Jump" stuff actually... we've now got four different threads started by the same person who doesn't seem to want to let go of the subject.

 

[klingsor]

It seems quite clear, in the original Traveller you could jump into empty hexes and it seems more than reasonable that the Mongoose version inherits that property. Case cased. Home in time for tea and medals.