E-Mines Query

[Methos5000]

Officially under e-mines it states it attacks all targets within the blast radius, it doesn't target them. So within the rules its allowed. It just doesn't make any real sense. As others have stated the Narn (or any other e-mine race) would know a rough blast radius of their e-mines. I doesn't make any sense to use it within range of your own ships.

Now granted with the new Narn e-mines I don't think you will see many e-mines being dropped on their own ships, possibly the same with the Brakiri having DD e-mines. Since pak'ma'ra have single and double damage e-mines plus built in redundancy they might use them alot with little worry about their own ships. The Gaim could be the same way, having single damage their is less cause for hitting your own ships as long as you nail the enemy as well.

 

[wierdo]

Ever heard of a computer?

Yes, I'm quite familiar with them - ever heard of user error?

It doesn't matter how accurate the computer is if the person using it inputs the wrong command. Using that line of thinking would mean that you could say that you would never need to roll to hit with any weapon as the computer would correct any errors the user made which obviously isn't the case.

 

[tneva82]

It doesn't matter how accurate the computer is if the person using it inputs the wrong command. Using that line of thinking would mean that you could say that you would never need to roll to hit with any weapon as the computer would correct any errors the user made which obviously isn't the case.

a) emines are "slightly" more forgiving though. Beams, missiles etc are very small shots so go off 100 meters and you have likely missed target. Emine blast encompes heaps of space(hundreds of kilometers?) so missing is lot harder.
b) who says we roll to hit even? Seems more of rolling wether shot penetrates anyway...Which is why ARMOUR PIERCING trait helps to score a hit. Seems like game already assumes ship gets hit and it's just matter off seeing wether hit penetrates armour or not ;-)

 

[wierdo]

a) emines are "slightly" more forgiving though. Beams, missiles etc are very small shots so go off 100 meters and you have likely missed target. Emine blast encompes heaps of space(hundreds of kilometers?) so missing is lot harder.

Yes and I have no problem with an energy mine landing bang on target if you have a target - the only time I am suggesting having any kind of roll to see if the e-mine detonates where you want it to is when firing at empty space as even a small mistake when calculating the trajectory could mean quite a large deviation.

b) who says we roll to hit even? Seems more of rolling wether shot penetrates anyway...Which is why ARMOUR PIERCING trait helps to score a hit. Seems like game already assumes ship gets hit and it's just matter off seeing wether hit penetrates armour or not ;-)

Well I use the term "roll to hit" as this is as it is termed in the game so I conceed the point

 

[Voronesh]

And what is the difference between an empty point of space, that only exist within sentient being minds as a concept, as it doesnt have any other existence beyond its spatial coordinates. And a target that i strying NOT to get hit at all costs.

If you can manage to hit a ship with a poinpoint laser beam (even a small deviation is going to make you miss) people should be able to make a small nuke (or whatever is beaing used in that sentient beings special case) hit within a few hundred meters.

Now as to why you can actually hit enemy fighters swarming your ship, and not hit your own ship? well i dont know. I never did that, i am a bit indiscriminate in that regard, but Emines werent TD back in 1e. Fluffwise a reason could be the blast jinking the fighters around, so the AF gunners have an easy time.

 

[Z Baron]

Officially under e-mines it states it attacks all targets within the blast radius, it doesn't target them.

That's a clever bit of semantics in that interpretation - no criticism meant to you, of course!

I would argue that an E-mine is like any other weapon - except that it has a 6" diameter targeting zone. I see nothing in the E-mine description that would grant it immunity from the "you may never target your own ship" rule.

Again, has there been any official ruling on this question?

 

[H]

certainly for 1st ed Matt stated that e-mines can hit their own ships, as they did not target them, but an area of space, indeed, IF you insist that e-mines target a ship, you must also therefore allow the use of concentrate all fire! as it stands, the ruling was, e-mines target space, not a ship, as the target is not a ship, you cannot CAF. hey, I'm all in favour of being able to CAf AP TD e-mines if thats how people want to go.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I believe there was and it was found perfectly ok to short range energy mine weapons or fire "close" to your own ships. (Can't find it though.)

certainly for 1st ed Matt stated that e-mines can hit their own ships, as they did not target them, but an area of space, indeed, IF you insist that e-mines target a ship, you must also therefore allow the use of concentrate all fire! as it stands, the ruling was, e-mines target space, not a ship, as the target is not a ship, you cannot CAF. hey, I'm all in favour of being able to CAf AP TD e-mines if thats how people want to go.

My view was not that it should target a ship, the opposite - that when you do actively target space the explosion has to stop short of your own ships. i.e. That you can't fire on your own ships or fire in a way to catch your ships in the blast.

 

[H]

Thats down to the individual commander though surely. lots of players would happily hit their own ship, if it meant they could get rid of the pesky fighters.
If I had a G'Quan surrounded by T-bolts sitting outside AF range, they can damage me a lot more than a quick pulsar mine blast from a G'karith. Seems to make perfect sense to do it

 

[Sulfurdown]

Lots of players would also fire on their own ships with standard weapons if it gave them a slight tactical advantage.

 

[H]

Lots of players would also fire on their own ships with standard weapons if it gave them a slight tactical advantage.

well, I think you should be able to target your own dead ships to blow them up, their is no benefit that i can see to targeting a live ship with anything but mines.

 

[scorpioni]

Well as a Dilgar I'd love to send an almost dead ship (preferably a Jashakar or something) into a fighterswarm and then unleash some bolters to make it explode

 

[H]

Well as a Dilgar I'd love to send an almost dead ship (preferably a Jashakar or something) into a fighterswarm and then unleash some bolters to make it explode

I think that would be very cool, and very dilgaresque

 

[Sulfurdown]

That crippled ship in the middle of the enemy fleet? Yeah there are a lot of times where it would make tactical sense but that was ruled out by some kind of Space Geneva Convention where they enforce that players not be as bloodthirsty as they like (especially since these are not real people we're firing on). I'm just thinking it should be consistent.

 

[scorpioni]

Yeah, I had a few times a Narn would literally drop Emines just 0.00000001 inch from his ship to wipe out some fighters. It's just an unfair advantage. Those were the 1E days, mind you Only played 2 2E games and one was a low priority vs narn (so no Emines) and the other... well... 'scratch one ancient, 4 more to go' I like to call it ^^

I love my extinct Dilgar

 

[H]

Yeah, I had a few times a Narn would literally drop Emines just 0.00000001 inch from his ship to wipe out some fighters. It's just an unfair advantage. Those were the 1E days, mind you Only played 2 2E games and one was a low priority vs narn (so no Emines) and the other... well... 'scratch one ancient, 4 more to go' I like to call it ^^

I love my extinct Dilgar

well, saying it's an advantage, is, well, obvious, that IS the narns key advantage, just like dodge and adaptive armour are an advantage on ISA, and interceptors and fighters are an advantage for EA. It's part of the flavour of the fleet.

 

[Sulfurdown]

And Gaim

 

[Voronesh]

Officially under e-mines it states it attacks all targets within the blast radius, it doesn't target them.

That's a clever bit of semantics in that interpretation - no criticism meant to you, of course!

I would argue that an E-mine is like any other weapon - except that it has a 6" diameter targeting zone. I see nothing in the E-mine description that would grant it immunity from the "you may never target your own ship" rule.

Again, has there been any official ruling on this question?

Ever played Magic the Gathering? Targeting has like a milelong rule explanation to it, along with when whatever card does target and that one doesnt. Its all semantics. So effectively you do not target your own ship, it just happened to be in the wrong playce for the lightshow. Plus if Narn would not be allowed to swipe fighters with emines (G'Kariths) from G'Quans they would need some extra AF method, otherwise every single WS would love a G'Quan to death.

That crippled ship in the middle of the enemy fleet? Yeah there are a lot of times where it would make tactical sense but that was ruled out by some kind of Space Geneva Convention where they enforce that players not be as bloodthirsty as they like (especially since these are not real people we're firing on). I'm just thinking it should be consistent.

Too bad the Dilgar never were part of Space Geneva........ (Now on a more serious note, its this one rule, that exists in nearly every single tabeltop game, it very often it makes little sense, beyond the we are such a humane fighting force, while within 2 pages they show you just how much of a badass that evil army is......)