E-Mines Query

[tneva82]

But in EVERY BATTLE SEEN IN B5 its close range. Visual range at that. The game is based on a TV show not on what would REALLY happen.

They might appear because ships needs to be seen but who says they aren't thousands of km's away?

 

[Locutus9956]

But in EVERY BATTLE SEEN IN B5 its close range. Visual range at that. The game is based on a TV show not on what would REALLY happen.

They might appear because ships needs to be seen but who says they aren't thousands of km's away?

And who says they ARE 1000s of KM away? Its never stated one way or the other!

 

[Delthos]

And by the same argument, stealth shouldn't really work then either as you are close enough to not need to use the targeting computers. Just point and fire at the target that is obviously visible. :twisted:

It doesn't reduce the fact that without targeting sensors to determine distance you will only get a best guess location, not the targeting computer and sensor enhanced exact measuring method the rules use by default. To intentionally place an energy mine to have stealth ships in range without first having gotten a target lock on one of them, or having another non-stealth ship in range is a huge hole in the stealth/energy mine rules.

They should either have some kind of deviation or stealth check like any other weapon. Perhaps even have the stealth check to place it exactly. If not it deviates.

 

[tneva82]

And who says they ARE 1000s of KM away? Its never stated one way or the other!

Realism? JMS wanted space battles to be realistic so that would only make sense.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

In my (admittedly still limited) experience with ACTA, e-mines are good but not overwhelming. Making them deviate would radically reduce their effectiveness and lead to all sorts of balance issues...

What I would much rather see is a rule that says e-mines attack everything within three inches of the target point and anything in base contact with anything so attacked. That way, fighters snugged up against a ship know that any e-mine that kills them will at least scratch the paint on the ship that they are attacking....

I just don't see how the blast area of an e-mine can be judged so accurately that it can come within a few meters of a moving ship but not hit it.

ShopKeepJon

 

[tneva82]

I just don't see how the blast area of an e-mine can be judged so accurately that it can come within a few meters of a moving ship but not hit it.

Well we aren't talking about few meters but even at most close call situation more like few km's ;-)

 

[wierdo]

Making them deviate would radically reduce their effectiveness and lead to all sorts of balance issues...

Well as I've allready stated my general thinking was that if a non-stealthed ship was targeted then it automatically goes in with no chance of deviation but if firing at an empty region of space have to make a crew quality check as there is no set target to aim at.

 

[inq101]

Basic trigonometry won't work as the ships wouldn't be in visual range. You're forgetting these ships are supposed to be no bigger than the stem of the base. You can't use basic trigonometry if you can't see the ship because of distance and your advanced targeting computers/sensors can't get a fix on the ship to determine distance. Even if you can see the enemy ship, there's really nothing to use as a point of reference to judge distance in space, so you are back to best guess and needing a deviation roll.

You do bring up a good point though, against ships without stealth it's not as big of a deal if they don't deviate.

What I'd really like to see is that you have to make a stealth check to use energy mines on ships with stealth (using the lowest stealth rating of all ships in range), unless there is another ship without stealth in range of the template or you've achieved a targeting lock on at least one of the ships with stealth that is within range of the template. This would satisfy my dislike of the energy mines as they stand, as you've now got something to use for targeting data.

We can measure how far a star is from Earth now by measuring Red-shift. All you would need is a few good telescopes on one ship and to know how far apart they are.

 

[scorpioni]

Oh wait.. I DID see green/purple

LOVED it ^^

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Its only a game and people need to remember that. You want it to be incredibly realistic you sit there and work it out down to the very last detail. Remember this is space so everythings even more complicated, thats not including hyperspace.

 

[Locutus9956]

And who says they ARE 1000s of KM away? Its never stated one way or the other!

Realism? JMS wanted space battles to be realistic so that would only make sense.

And yet we still SEE ships at visual ranges on the show... realism is good to a point but generally doesnt make for truly good TV

And frankly to whoever it was who said about stealth, yes I completely agree stealth shouldnt work the way it does Its why Ive been advocating for ages stealth making weapons less effective, not useless or normal (it should be more grey and as opposed to black or white (which is kind of appropriate for the Minbari really )

 

[Sulfurdown]

Cinematic Canon, oooh yeaah!

 

[wierdo]

We can measure how far a star is from Earth now by measuring Red-shift. All you would need is a few good telescopes on one ship and to know how far apart they are.

I would agree for stationarry objects however by the time you have calculated the position of a moving spacecraft it would be somewhere else, in that respect making a Crew Quality Check would be representative of the gunner calculating where the ship or ships were going to be with accuracy, if it fails they plot the position wrong and hence the target point would deviate.

 

[inq101]

We can measure how far a star is from Earth now by measuring Red-shift. All you would need is a few good telescopes on one ship and to know how far apart they are.

I would agree for stationarry objects however by the time you have calculated the position of a moving spacecraft it would be somewhere else, in that respect making a Crew Quality Check would be representative of the gunner calculating where the ship or ships were going to be with accuracy, if it fails they plot the position wrong and hence the target point would deviate.

Ever heard of a computer?

 

[tneva82]

And yet we still SEE ships at visual ranges on the show... realism is good to a point but generally doesnt make for truly good TV

Just because they are cramped together in TV screen doesn't mean they couldn't be thousands of km's away.

And frankly to whoever it was who said about stealth, yes I completely agree stealth shouldnt work the way it does Its why Ive been advocating for ages stealth making weapons less effective, not useless or normal (it should be more grey and as opposed to black or white (which is kind of appropriate for the Minbari really )

Thing is it's on/off in B5 series so...No lock, no shooting of note.

 

[Locutus9956]

And yet we still SEE ships at visual ranges on the show... realism is good to a point but generally doesnt make for truly good TV

Just because they are cramped together in TV screen doesn't mean they couldn't be thousands of km's away.

And frankly to whoever it was who said about stealth, yes I completely agree stealth shouldnt work the way it does Its why Ive been advocating for ages stealth making weapons less effective, not useless or normal (it should be more grey and as opposed to black or white (which is kind of appropriate for the Minbari really )

Thing is it's on/off in B5 series so...No lock, no shooting of note.

No its not though, its not on/off its on/on. It never 'randomly does nothing'.... hence you need to put a mechanism in that represents ships always blind firing (hence my suggestion in the other stealth thread)

 

[H]

And yet we still SEE ships at visual ranges on the show... realism is good to a point but generally doesnt make for truly good TV

Just because they are cramped together in TV screen doesn't mean they couldn't be thousands of km's away.

And frankly to whoever it was who said about stealth, yes I completely agree stealth shouldnt work the way it does Its why Ive been advocating for ages stealth making weapons less effective, not useless or normal (it should be more grey and as opposed to black or white (which is kind of appropriate for the Minbari really )

Thing is it's on/off in B5 series so...No lock, no shooting of note.

if they are thousands of KM away, you would never get both ships visibly on screen, unless the ships were themselves somewhat larger than we believe them to be. I mean, I know you like a good argument, but well, it doesn't matter what I say anyway, but IT's a fricking TV show! it's not real!

 

[Voronesh]

And in addition to 2edHiff.

Its a game, it doesnt have to do anything with reality. I mean theres psychics involved. And energy beings. And they actually can kill YOU. When you start with energy mines, why not go and discuss the probability of a Vorlon ganing up on EA ships.

Now on a more serious note. G'kariths now, and any Narn emine during 1e. I would not special target anything. I smply fired on my own ships, because it felt better. Like 2 tanks using their respective MGs on each other to clear the pesky infantry off.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

I just don't see how the blast area of an e-mine can be judged so accurately that it can come within a few meters of a moving ship but not hit it.

Well we aren't talking about few meters but even at most close call situation more like few km's ;-)

The rules allow a fighter that is in base contact with a ship to ignore that ship's stealth since it can fire based on visual contact without reference to target locks, etc. I just don't see fighter pilots being able to fire from the hip at a distance of a few kilometers. Now if you're ok with a rapidly moving body in space being accurately fired upon by another rapidly moving body without the use of a computer assisted targeting system, then I can see why you have no problem with this.

I still maintain that they would have to be a lot closer than a few km's to pull this off...

ShopKeepJon

 

[Z Baron]

hmm, why is it when someone looses to someone they seem to blame the weapons/abilities of that race, rather than think "how can I beat that"
and why would an advanced alien races weapon system deviate? heck if the US and British army can drop guided missiles within mere inches (allegedly) then why would a spacefaring race not be able to?

One thing that's bothered me about the energy mines is that no other weapon can be used to target your own ships (most likely to avoid Fire Ship situations and more importantly, questions about XP and VP). It's written right into the rules. Only with energy mines you're saying that the races that utilize mines can - and do - fire on their own ships. I know the "it's targeting open space, not the ship," but since you know the size of the explosion and you can pinpoint it's origin - you ARE targeting your own ship and everything else in the blast radius.

Can they? ACTA2E-1, p. 8.

"You may never target one of your own ships under any circumstances."

I would interpret this to mean that you may NOT target a space with an E-Mine that would damage a friendly ship. Has there been a Rulesmaster/Matt Sprange/FAQ/On the Spot Tournament Ruling on this point?