Double turret with a pulse laser and a sandcaster
- Thread starter paltrysum
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Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
The way I remember it - been a while since I read that chapter - only one type of weapon per turret may attack per round, so you can’t fire
Both the laser and the sandcasters, but you can make an attack with one weapon and use the other to make a defence reaction.
You may not use the same weapon within a turret to both make an attack and conduct a defensive reaction. I don’t remember an actual rule saying you can’t make two different reactions with the same turret (anti-missile
With the laser and anti-laser with the sandcasters, for example) but it doesn’t sound right. Perhaps it falls under the “mat only fire a single type of weapon” rule..?
Both the laser and the sandcasters, but you can make an attack with one weapon and use the other to make a defence reaction.
You may not use the same weapon within a turret to both make an attack and conduct a defensive reaction. I don’t remember an actual rule saying you can’t make two different reactions with the same turret (anti-missile
With the laser and anti-laser with the sandcasters, for example) but it doesn’t sound right. Perhaps it falls under the “mat only fire a single type of weapon” rule..?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Isn't a space combat turn several minutes?
Other thing that's weird is why you'd have all these weapons in a single turret. "1 turret per 100 tons" should be "3 weapons per 100 tons" if you need to restrict weapons for balance reasons. You also run out of surface area, but they had no problems fitting 4 turrets on a B-17.
Other thing that's weird is why you'd have all these weapons in a single turret. "1 turret per 100 tons" should be "3 weapons per 100 tons" if you need to restrict weapons for balance reasons. You also run out of surface area, but they had no problems fitting 4 turrets on a B-17.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Six minutes is a long time.
You could link differing offensive weapon systems, so that if one hit, so probably would the other; with sandcasters, the laser could have a secondary function as red dot pointer, if you're using it in it's anti personnel role.
As I interpret the rules, one weapon system per turn per turret.
You could link differing offensive weapon systems, so that if one hit, so probably would the other; with sandcasters, the laser could have a secondary function as red dot pointer, if you're using it in it's anti personnel role.
As I interpret the rules, one weapon system per turn per turret.
paltrysum
Emperor Mongoose
That's what I thought, too, but a re-reading of the rules tells us this:
Double and Triple Turrets
Some spacecraft are fitted with double or triple turrets, which allow two or three weapons to be mounted in the same turret. If these weapons are different (a pulse laser, missile rack and sandcaster in the same triple turret, for example), then only one type may be used to attack an enemy in a combat round. However, if two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total. (p. 158)
Right, so seemingly this would mean you have to choose one or the other, but...there are two things there that give me pause: 1) it says only one type may be used to "attack" an enemy in a combat round. Use of a sandcaster for defensive purposes is not an attack and, in fact, occurs in a separate phase of a combat round: the Reaction phase, described below. First let's consider Point Defense:
Point Defence (Gunner)
Using a turret-mounted laser (beam or pulse), a gunner can destroy incoming missiles. Note that a weapon used for point defence cannot be used to make attacks in the same combat round, and vice versa. Point Defence may only be performed against missile salvos (see page 161) as they are about to make their attack roll against a target – missiles are too small and too fast to be targeted at greater ranges. A gunner may only attempt Point Defence against once every round.
Okay, so a laser used for point defense cannot be used to attack in the same round. If you have a missile rack and a laser in a turret, then the text in "Point Defense" section seems to imply that you could fire the missile and still do point defense with the laser in the same turn. You just couldn't attack with the laser and do point defense with it in the same turn.
Fair enough. So if that's the case, let's consider sandcasters:
Disperse Sand (Gunner)
While cheap and versatile, laser weapons are easily foiled by dispersed particles, or sand as it is often called. Sandcasters are designed to create temporary defences against incoming laser attacks. Using a turret-mounted sandcaster, a gunner can attempt to block laser attacks. The gunner must succeed at a Gunner (turret) check against a laser weapon and, if successful, he will add 1D plus the Effect of his check to the ship’s armour against that laser attack only. Each Disperse Sand reaction uses one canister of sand. Sand may also be directed against incoming boarding parties. If the Gunner (turret) check is successful, each target in the boarding party suffers 8D point of damage at Personal scale.
It does describe how a sandcaster is used for defense, but also it can attack boarding parties. I might argue that using it against boarding parties would occur in the attack phase, but maybe that's splitting hairs.
The basic case is that if a missile could be fired and a laser used for defense from the same turret, couldn't a laser be used for attack and a sandcaster for defense from the same turret? Or am I getting it all twisted up and confused?
Double and Triple Turrets
Some spacecraft are fitted with double or triple turrets, which allow two or three weapons to be mounted in the same turret. If these weapons are different (a pulse laser, missile rack and sandcaster in the same triple turret, for example), then only one type may be used to attack an enemy in a combat round. However, if two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total. (p. 158)
Right, so seemingly this would mean you have to choose one or the other, but...there are two things there that give me pause: 1) it says only one type may be used to "attack" an enemy in a combat round. Use of a sandcaster for defensive purposes is not an attack and, in fact, occurs in a separate phase of a combat round: the Reaction phase, described below. First let's consider Point Defense:
Point Defence (Gunner)
Using a turret-mounted laser (beam or pulse), a gunner can destroy incoming missiles. Note that a weapon used for point defence cannot be used to make attacks in the same combat round, and vice versa. Point Defence may only be performed against missile salvos (see page 161) as they are about to make their attack roll against a target – missiles are too small and too fast to be targeted at greater ranges. A gunner may only attempt Point Defence against once every round.
Okay, so a laser used for point defense cannot be used to attack in the same round. If you have a missile rack and a laser in a turret, then the text in "Point Defense" section seems to imply that you could fire the missile and still do point defense with the laser in the same turn. You just couldn't attack with the laser and do point defense with it in the same turn.
Fair enough. So if that's the case, let's consider sandcasters:
Disperse Sand (Gunner)
While cheap and versatile, laser weapons are easily foiled by dispersed particles, or sand as it is often called. Sandcasters are designed to create temporary defences against incoming laser attacks. Using a turret-mounted sandcaster, a gunner can attempt to block laser attacks. The gunner must succeed at a Gunner (turret) check against a laser weapon and, if successful, he will add 1D plus the Effect of his check to the ship’s armour against that laser attack only. Each Disperse Sand reaction uses one canister of sand. Sand may also be directed against incoming boarding parties. If the Gunner (turret) check is successful, each target in the boarding party suffers 8D point of damage at Personal scale.
It does describe how a sandcaster is used for defense, but also it can attack boarding parties. I might argue that using it against boarding parties would occur in the attack phase, but maybe that's splitting hairs.
The basic case is that if a missile could be fired and a laser used for defense from the same turret, couldn't a laser be used for attack and a sandcaster for defense from the same turret? Or am I getting it all twisted up and confused?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Boarding is technically adjacent, and if you have line of sight, becomes dogfighting.
Then you readjust targetting in six second intervals.
Then you readjust targetting in six second intervals.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, technically, but I hope that is not intended.paltrysum said:
All other actions clearly state that a turret can only be used once in a round, but not the sandcaster action.
Unless we enforce the (unstated) rule about only one action per person in space combat (cf EW) the sandcaster can even fire several times in a round.
Note "a gunner can attempt to block laser attacks [plural]". It makes some sense that a triple SC turret can block three laser attacks, one sandcaster against each attack.
Also note that a single laser can attack and kill potentially many missiles in the same salvo with a single PD action.
In the end I am lazy, I allow one action per turret. The only advantage with a triple sandcaster turret is more ready rounds, but that is probably overkill.
I believe there is thread or at least a note about this from beta, so early 2016?
baithammer
Mongoose
Each round has several phases, in this we're dealing with the attack phase and reaction phase.
Point Defense requires the weapon ( Not Turret) not be used for anything but the Point Defense action. ( Reaction Phase)
Disperse Sand is in the reaction phase for either laser defense or boarding action.
And for giggles, High Guard doesn't have Sand Casters listed as an option for the Capital Ship combat rules....
Point Defense requires the weapon ( Not Turret) not be used for anything but the Point Defense action. ( Reaction Phase)
Disperse Sand is in the reaction phase for either laser defense or boarding action.
And for giggles, High Guard doesn't have Sand Casters listed as an option for the Capital Ship combat rules....
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
baithammer said:
Yeah, sounds like that just about sums it up.
Regarding capital ship combat and sandcasters, I noticed that too, but then I thought that perhaps sandcasters are assumed to always be used to full effect, and their damage reduction is already accounted for?
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, you are correct.baithammer said:
I seem to have introduced a house rule about here http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119548 and forgotten that it is a house rule...
I think I will stick with my house rule for simplicity. At the very least I would enforce "Multiple Tasks", p59 on the rolls.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
By default, it's streamlined game mechanics.
I'm sure if you break it up into six second segments, you could calculate how much time it takes to acquire each target, and then reconfigure the weapons platform to perform another task, latency caused by possible physical and mental fatigue, or increased accuracy by more carefully aligning targetting, sensor information and computer predictor.
I'm sure if you break it up into six second segments, you could calculate how much time it takes to acquire each target, and then reconfigure the weapons platform to perform another task, latency caused by possible physical and mental fatigue, or increased accuracy by more carefully aligning targetting, sensor information and computer predictor.
baithammer
Mongoose
It's one of the reasons I prefer the Type Point Defense Systems, which require no man power and automatically engage missiles without a task check.
Old School
Mongoose
Dedicated PD is obviously superior to a laser turret for the purpose, but hard to fit point defense systems on a 100-300 ton ship that most travellers wander around in.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It also takes up twenty tonnes.
At this scale, and what does seem like the probable intent of the original source, the turret was meant to accommodate differing weapon systems on a single weapons platform, giving an option between offence and defence for any particular situation.
As to whether the current rules set would permit both in the same six minutes, I couldn't say.
It probably screws over scouts, but freetraders could optionally have one turret act as defence, and have the other loaded for bear.
Since smallcraft have to separate their weapon systems, thirty five tonners and above can do the same.
At this scale, and what does seem like the probable intent of the original source, the turret was meant to accommodate differing weapon systems on a single weapons platform, giving an option between offence and defence for any particular situation.
As to whether the current rules set would permit both in the same six minutes, I couldn't say.
It probably screws over scouts, but freetraders could optionally have one turret act as defence, and have the other loaded for bear.
Since smallcraft have to separate their weapon systems, thirty five tonners and above can do the same.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
PD Batteries are (slightly) better than laser turrets per hardpoint, but much worse per tonnage.Old School said:
Laser turrets are highly dependent on crew skill, PD Batteries are not.
PD Batteries can target several salvoes, laser turrets can't
Neither is obviously superior in all use cases.
Old School
Mongoose
You’re actually agreeing with me, even though you appear to be trying to disagree.AnotherDilbert said:
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
I'm not trying to disagree.Old School said:
I believe we mostly agree, but not quite.
E.g. if we are building a 100 kDton BC we probably do not have ~15 kDton space for PD batteries, so we could fit many more laser turrets, providing better PD capacity.
I think in this case PD batteries are not superior, but that is perhaps not what you meant?
Old School
Mongoose
We do agree, and I made that exact same point in my post.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
OK, then I misunderstood.Old School said:
steve98052
Mongoose
I think the design goal for the three space weapons in classic Book 2 was a bit like "rock, scissors, paper". Missiles hurt a lot, but both lasers and sand can defend. Lasers hurt, and only sand can defend. Sand defends well, but can't attack.AnotherDilbert said:
