Solomani666
Mongoose
With 6 second combat rounds, does a fighter get to fire its pulse laser 60 times?
Dogfighting
- Thread starter Solomani666
- Start date
Solomani666
Mongoose
Normal space combat round = 6 minutes = 6 * 60 seconds = 360 seconds
Dogfight combat round = 6 seconds.
360 / 6 = 60 dogfight rounds to a normal ship combat round
Dogfight combat round = 6 seconds.
360 / 6 = 60 dogfight rounds to a normal ship combat round
Agreed this made it much easier to answer your question.-Daniel- said:
Tl
r No a fighter will not get to fire 60 times at a ship during a ship based combat round due to dog fighting, because that ship will be part of the dog fight too and therefore also firing. Dogfighting only takes place within 10km adjacent range and takes the combat out of normal ship based combat mechanics and into the dogfighting mechanics.
The rules for it are listed on page 162 and continued onto 163. They lay out about both ships having to perform opposed pilot checks to try and gain advantage by putting the opposing ship in the optimal firing arc.
For example, most fighters have fixed weapons rather than turrets so they need to have the ship they are targeting in their forward firing arc, a ship with turrets don't have that problem. However ships of 100 tons or larger suffer a -6 to attack rolls in dog fights so it's in their best interest to move out of the dog fighting range if possible.
Solomani666
Mongoose
So they do get to fire 60 times per standard combat round.
So a single destroyer engaged by two frigates could enter into short range with one of the frigates and resolve that combat without interference from the second frigate.
So a single destroyer engaged by two frigates could enter into short range with one of the frigates and resolve that combat without interference from the second frigate.
Adjacent range, and in that case yes,Solomani666 said:
But both Destroyer and Frigate would be at a -6 to hit one another every time they were trying to attack. And all it takes is one of the ships to move out of Adjacent range for the dogfight to end. Realistically, you won't get 60 shots before that happens.
Yes... and no 
On a practical level, you just resolve one attack per round when ships move into dogfighting range.
Now, if you have three ships, two at dogfighting distance and one orbiting a nearby moon, then the moon ship would get to fire once while the dogfighters have their 60 combat rounds - they can actually see their opponent and are frantically blasting away, while the moon is making complex calculations, taking relative motions into account, hoping it won't accidentally hit its ally, etc, before it takes its shot.
However, again on a practical level, that dogfight is going to be over long before all that is resolved.
Basically, you could, in theory, have a situation where a ship seems to be hanging around doing nothing but, realistically, you would resolve the dogfight and then go back to space combat rounds.
On a practical level, you just resolve one attack per round when ships move into dogfighting range.
Now, if you have three ships, two at dogfighting distance and one orbiting a nearby moon, then the moon ship would get to fire once while the dogfighters have their 60 combat rounds - they can actually see their opponent and are frantically blasting away, while the moon is making complex calculations, taking relative motions into account, hoping it won't accidentally hit its ally, etc, before it takes its shot.
However, again on a practical level, that dogfight is going to be over long before all that is resolved.
Basically, you could, in theory, have a situation where a ship seems to be hanging around doing nothing but, realistically, you would resolve the dogfight and then go back to space combat rounds.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's a trap!
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The ion cannon will fire several shots to make sure any enemy ships will be out of your flight path. When you've gotten past the energy shield, proceed directly to the rendezvous point. Understood? Good luck.
I was working on my own version of these rules when Mongoose released their revisions...I thought I'd put them up here to see if anyone had ideas, or if portions might be added to the already existing rules.
I may have grossly overthought the process and my ideas are not always the most streamlined...but thats why you get second opinions and feedback.
WARNING ITS A LONNNNNNNNNNNNG post
Combat Manoeuvring: "Dogfighting"
While combat in space tends to be a long range affair, with the victor determined by the most powerful and most accurate weapons. Occasionally small craft and light starships engage in close in fights where the skill of the pilot and agility of the vessel play a tremendous role in determining the victor.
At adjacent ranges vessels are moving much faster in relation to one another than at many thousands of kilometres. This causes actions in combat manoeuvring to occur much more rapidly that typical combat.
Combat manoeuvring is chaotic, rapid paced, and dynamic, often the role of aggressor, and defender will change multiple times during a single combat round as pilots jockey for position and execute extreme manoeuvres to gain advantage or throw off their attackers.
in combat manoeuvring the pilot who uses his vessel to the best advantage and has superior skill, or equipment will have a definitive edge over his enemy., Leading to a one sided battle when well equipped and trained forces match up against less able, and less experienced forces.
Typically combat manoeuvring is the domain of small craft, armed shuttles, and fighters. However occasionally cutters, escorts, corvettes and frigates however this is extremely difficult at times, and puts larger vessels at a massive disadvantage when engaging smaller vessels
Time
Combat manoeuvring typically take place at adjacent ranges with the vehicles well within visual sighting range, this most often occurs around planets, large formations of larger vessels, and convenient obstructions and structures. To engage in combat manoeuvring. Both pilots must agree to engagement. Or the aggressive player must succeed in an Engage Manoeuvre , which then forces the opposing vessel to enter combat manoeuvring.
To engage in close combat, both vessels must be at adjacent range with one another and my not enter close range band or combat manoeuvring ends.
Size Limitations:
Only vessels of 1000 tons or less may choose engage in combat manoeuvring. Larger vessels are simply to massive and bulky to Manoeuvre in close quarters at the bone crushing velocities of smaller vessels. However a vessel
If a smaller craft so chooses, a vessel over 1000 tons can be FORCED into combat maneuvering, if a successful engage maneuver is executed. This puts the larger vessel in an extreme disadvantage. It may not execute any piloting maneuvers, or attempt to break away or revers it’s role in combat. It can only fire it’s weapons and attempt to open range to exit combat maneuvering.
A vessel cannot force a vessel more than two hundred tons smaller than itself into combat manoeuvring. the size differential simply allows too many opportunities to find positions where the opposing vessel can evade contact due to obstructions of view, blind spots in sensors, or gaps in weapons coverage.
This does not mean that smaller vessels cannot willingly enter combat manoeuvring with a larger vessel. In fact it gives them a superior advantage over larger vessels, which they may exploit by forcing the larger vessel to engage in combat manoeuvring.
For every 100, or fraction thereof, tons of difference between opposing vessels size the smaller vessel gains a DM+1 to all piloting checks while engaged in combat maneuvering.
This DM applies to any maneuver, or gunnery check made by the smaller vessels pilot. It lo applies as a negate modifier on the larger vessels gunnery actions during close combat.
Small craft formations, and ship size.
Fighters and small craft in formation have their total tonnage combined for determining thhe formations size. A squadron of 20, ten ton small craft is equivalent to a 200 ton ships for size considerations in close combat maneuvering.
Range:
Only vessels in adjacent range to one another can engage in combat manoeuvring. outside of the adjacent range band only intercept, or pursuit, manoeuvres can be executed to close the range bands to adjacent.
Vessels over 1000 tons can elect to engage in combat manoeuvring at close ranges however, but at no time can capital ships Engage in combat manoeuvring due to the massive size.
Weapons restrictions: Only turret, and barbette mounted weapons, may fire freely in combat maneuvering, bays,fixed mounts, are limited in firing due to the rapid position changes that occur in combat maneuvering.
Pilots may use an available Manoeuvre to bring bays, and fixed weapons into play but they must burn at least one Manoeuvre during a combat phase to do so. This action requires no piloting check. Unless the opposing pilot executes an evade, or negate advantage maneuver to prevent the pilot from firing his fixed/bay weaponry. At which pint he must win an opposed check wth the defending pilot to use his weaponry.
This only applies for weapons he has control over, to bring weapons under the control of gunners he must succeed in a gain advantage check.
This requires a check Pilot (average +0) and I considered a single maneuver for the purpose of tracking maneuvers. Weapons use may be limited further depending on the aggressor/defender Status of the vessel. The Aggressor vessel almost always has the advantage of bringing more weapons into play against a defender.
Larger vessels may find it difficult to bring a smaller vessel into its firing arcs at extremely close range. A vessel may freely fire a number of weapons equal to the percentage of its volume taken up by the opposing vessel ( a 20 ton fighter is 20 percent of a 100 ton vessel, so 20% of the larger vessels turrets ay fire.)
If the pilot wishes to allow his gunners to engage he must spend a maneuver to bring more turrets into firing position. (This is maneuver is allowed to vessels which would normally not gain any pilot maneuvers due to size.) however it may require multiple maneuvers to bring all guns onto target.
The larger ships gains that ability to fire it’s turrets at a target in blocks equal to the percentage of it’s volume taken up by the smaller ship
(The 20 ton ship mentioned earlier would require 4 maneuvers to give 1005 engagement by the larger vessels turrets.)
Thrust differences
Vessels with Higher thrust, than an aggressive vessel may accelerate out of the aggressive vessels combat engagement range by simply opening the range the range between the two vessels to the close, or short range. At this point the two vessels are forced to engage in normal ship combat as per normal combat rules.
To escape combat manoeuvring the defensive vessel must only succeed in an Evade, or open range Manoeuvre, and have a superior thrust rating over the aggressive vessel. This thrust number is determined by how many thrust points are available, if a vessel has designated a number of thrust points to manoeuvring then those thrust points are not used to determine if it can overtake, or escape from an opposing vessel.
Engage maneuvers
Engage: Pilot ( ships Type) Average +0 Result: both craft are now considered to be in close combat with one another. Initiative determined after successful engage Manoeuvre.
For a forced engagement check the craft that is attempting to force engagement is the aggressor vessel, and the vehicle attempting to refuse engagement is the defender. This applies only to the maneuver to force engagement. Aggressor, / defender roles for the actual combat will be determined by intiatives.
When attempting to force another vessel into Combat Manoeuvring, the following modifiers apply.
Additional modifiers may be applied if the following conditions exist.
Aggressor vessel has greater thrust number than defender: DM = Difference in Aggressors thrust value over defenders thrust value
Aggressor Vehicle is larger than defender: Dm -2
Aggressor Vessel Is smaller than defender: DM +2
Aggressor Vessel has impaired or jammed sensors: Dm -2
Defender Vessel has impaired or jammed sensors: Dm +2
Multiple vessels involved in Combat: +1/-1 per two vessels greater, or fewer than the opposing Side, if aggressor(s) outnumber the opposition the number is applied as a positive modifier to the engage Manoeuvre roll. If the aggressor is outnumbered then the modifier is applied as a negative die modifier..
Initiative: once vessels are engaged in combat manoeuvring the vessels must determine which vessel seizes the initiative. One vessel or group becomes the Aggressor having seized the initiative. Gaining favourable position, velocity, and range over the opposition. The Aggressor vessel has a significant advantage over the defender which will usually be forced into violently attempting to shake off, or evade pursuit and weapons fire to the exclusion of offensive actions.
Initiative for Combat Manoeuvring is more complex than normal combat, with more factors being involved due to the complexity of the situation.
Base initiative
pilot skill bonus+thrust points allocated to manoeuvring)
Total Initiative: 2d6+ Base Initiative+ modifiers applied by GM, r situational modifiers.
Result: pilot with higher result becomes aggressor, opposing pilot becomes defender.
MANEUVORS And REACTIONS
Maneuvers and reactions are used in close combat and should be tracked separate. Maneuvers ae carried out by the pilot, or flight crew, while reactions may be carried out by pilot, by gunners, sensor operators, and other crewman if they have control of a systems, or weapons that can influence the outcome of a round.
Maneuvers: actions taken by the pilot of the ship, these do not include gunners, or other crewmen, which receive one action per round.
Reactions: these are actions taken as a response to some event, or action outside the pilot and crews own vessel these include point defense, and other actions that are listed as being an action available as a reaction.
During maneuvers each pilot may fire fixed weapons as a maneuver.
Each Pilot may execute one maneuver per round, plus thrust points dedicated to Manoeuvring
Due to the rapid action of the round thrust must be allocated before actions of manoeuvres are carried out and cannot be changed unless otherwise noted, or allowed by the referee.
Pilots of a defending vessel may only execute those manoeuvres which are described as being available to a defender. Any evasions granted to a vessel by evasion software may be executed by either pilot of the defending and aggressor vessel.
Burning initiative. If an aggressor vessel burns initiative to gain additional maneuvers reactions in a combat round it runs the risk of reversing the aggressor/defender role.
If the aggressor pilot reduces his initiative below the defenders initiative, then the defender may execute an automatic reverse engagement Manoeuvre with an additional +2 modifier to the check. this applied only to the first round the initiative of the two vessels change, if the round passes without the roles being reversed the roles remain the same until the next opportunity to reverse roles occurs.
Burning reactions: either pilot may sacrifice reactions to increase their initiative. Increasing their initiative, by the number of reactions they sacrifice.
This leaves them vulnerable to attack but may allow a defending vehicle to gain initiative and become the aggressor vessel if it wishes. If the defenders initiative at any time becomes greater than the aggressor, then the defender pilot may attempt to breakaway, reverse engagement, or increase range to escape combat manoeuvring.
In all Manoeuvre/action checks the acting pilot’s skill and attribute are applied as a positive modifier to the roll, and the opposing pilots skill, and stat modifier are applied as a negative modifier to the check.
2d6 + (Aggressor Pilot skill+pilots dexterity modifier)+(opposing pilots Pilot Skill+dexterity modifier)+/-( miscellaneous modifiers)
OPPOSED vs STATIC Checks
An opposing pilot may elect to make any piloting check an opposed check, by using up an available maneuver/reaction. If the pilot has no available maneuvers/reactions the check uses the above formula to determine modifiers.
However is a pilot uses up is available maneuvers and reactions to oppose maneuvers by the aggressor pilot he is totally on the defensive and cannot take any action to escape, or reverse his position. Leaving him at a serious disadvantage.
NOTE
The justification for this rule is that during close combat any number of small actions by either pilot are going on at once but are in the background rather than deliberate actions. Instead of taking all these split second actions into account it is assumed that they are taking place and effect the difficulty of the check, even if the enemy pilot cannot make a reasoned, deliberate action to resist a maneuver/action.
Defenders may not take actions unless specified in manoeuvre/action description. It is limited to reactions to the aggressor’s actions. Once the aggressor/defender rolls are determined by an initiative roll, the defender can only take reactions, until he escapes engagement, or reverses the engagement. This gives the aggressor pilot a distinct advantage in most situations.
Gunners aboard defensive vessels ay take their normal actions attempting to fire on the aggressor vessel if possible.
However, due to the close range, and high mobility of vessels in combat manoeuvring only turreted weapons, or barbettes may fire in an unrestricted manner. Bay, and fixed weapons can only be fired if the vessel is in an aggressor role, or a defending pilot can execute a reverse advantage Manoeuvre successfully.
A defender does not have to wait for the aggressor vessel to execute a Gain advantage, Manoeuvre to attempt a reverse advantage Manoeuvre. This is simply an easy method to simulate the defender pilot managing to position a vessel in such a way it can fire its weapons freely even if fixed or bay mounted.
The aggressor must designate one point of thrust to manoeuvring, or Combat manoeuvring ends. If this drops the aggressors available thrust below the available thrust rating of the defending vessel. The defending vessel may automatically attempt to execute a Breakaway Manoeuvre, or a revere engagement Manoeuvre.
Piloting Actions
If the pilot of the opposing vessel wishes to do so these maneuvers may be a skill versus skill check, this requires the pilot of the opposing vessel to expend a maneuver, or reaction to oppose a skill check,. Otherwise the check is made at the set difficulty
Intercept: Very Difficult -4
Result: aggressor vessel matches defenders course, allowing it to attempt to engage in Combat Maneuvering. Aggressor must be closing with or at an angle to the Defender Vessel. If the if the target vessel is moving away from, or at a wide angle to the intercepting ship. The interceptor must have a higher thrust rating than the target vessel.
Pursuit: Average +0
Result: Aggressor vessel matches course and speed from behind allowing it to engage in close combat, Aggressor vessel must possess similar or Higher thrust rating.
Engage: Average +0
Result: both craft are now considered to be in close combat with one another. Initiative determined after successful engage Manoeuvre.
Breakaway: Difficult -2
Result: The defender vessel break contact and may attempt to flee, or attempt to reverse the engagement becoming the aggressor. May be executed as a defender reaction.
Fire weapons: Gunnery, Normal attack DMs, Difficulties apply
Result Pilot may engage with fixed or bay weapons available to him firing one weapon system per maneuver.
Open Range: Difficult -2
Result: the vessels move into close range from one another and combat manoeuvring ends. Requires the vessel attempting to open range have more available thrust than opposing vessel. May be executed by defending vessel as a Manoeuvre, or reaction.
Gain Advantage: Very Difficult -4
Result: The aggressor Gains a +2 DM to all pilot and Gunnery checks against the defending vessel A gain advantage check may be used to allow the gunners of a ship to use bay, or fixed weapon. If used in this manner it grants no bonus.
this maneuver can be used by a defending vessel to allow gunners to use bay or fixed weapons against an aggressor vessel by a defending vessel. If used in this way it grants no bonuses, does not negate enemy bonuses, or change the aggressor/defender role. It simply allows a defending a vessels gunnersl to use its own bay and fixed weapons from a defensive posture.
Evade: difficult -2
Result: the defending vessel applies a -4 Modifier to all pilot and gunnery checks made against it. may be executed as a defender Manoeuvre or reaction by the pilot.
Shadow: very difficult -6
Result: Defenders weapons may not be fired at the aggressor vessel, until shadow maneuver is canceled, or a successful Evade, Neutralize advantage is executed.
Neutralize advantage: Difficult -2
Result: Aggressor advantage Neutralized. Can be forced to prevent another vessel from firing bay, or fixed weapons at the defending vessel.
Reverse advantage: Formidable: -6
Result: defender vessel gains the benefits of advantage over the Aggressor vessel which loses all advantage bonuses. May be executed as a defender reaction. T
Reverse Engagement: very Difficult
Result: Vessels reverse roles, aggressor becomes defender, defender becomes aggressor. May be executed as a defender reaction
Spoiling Manoeuvre: Average +0
Result: Supporting vessel imposes a -2 DM on aggressor vessel. Requires multiple vessels in Combat manoeuvring, Aggressor may switch focus to spoiling vehicle without engage Manoeuvre.
Gunnery Actions:
Fire fixed weapons: Average +0
Result: A single turret, fixed, or bay weapon strikes the opposing vessel, may be carried out by both aggressor, and defender vessels. requires the pilot to execute a successful pilot check modified by the opposing vessels pilot skill, and dexterity modifier. May only be executed by aggressor vessel, unless otherwise noted.
Spoiling fire: Difficult -2
Result: imposes a -2 modifier on Aggressors piloting checks. Aggressor may ignore spoiling modifiers but is automatically struck by defenders fire.May be carried out by defender only,
Bracketing fire: Average +0
Result: defender must evade, or the Aggressor gains a +2 DM to next gunnery action. Aggressor must have multiple weapons and gunners.
Leading fire: Difficult -2
Result: Defender, or aggressor must successfully evade or suffer an automatic hit, may be attempted by either Aggressor, or defender
Pattern fire: No check
Result: Aggressor must evade or suffer a single hit by defenders weapons. Requires multiple turreted weapons, or bays.
Supporting fire: Average +0
Result: defender/aggressor gains +1 per vessel in support of defender/Aggressor , may be executed by defender or aggressor, requires multiple vessels in Combat maneuvering
Other crewman:
Sensor operators, comms operators, engineers and commanders may take a action during a Close combat round as per standard combat rules. They do not gain any additional actions per round due to number of maneuvers, or reactions. Granted to the ship by various actions and maneuvers.
I may have grossly overthought the process and my ideas are not always the most streamlined...but thats why you get second opinions and feedback.
WARNING ITS A LONNNNNNNNNNNNG post
Combat Manoeuvring: "Dogfighting"
While combat in space tends to be a long range affair, with the victor determined by the most powerful and most accurate weapons. Occasionally small craft and light starships engage in close in fights where the skill of the pilot and agility of the vessel play a tremendous role in determining the victor.
At adjacent ranges vessels are moving much faster in relation to one another than at many thousands of kilometres. This causes actions in combat manoeuvring to occur much more rapidly that typical combat.
Combat manoeuvring is chaotic, rapid paced, and dynamic, often the role of aggressor, and defender will change multiple times during a single combat round as pilots jockey for position and execute extreme manoeuvres to gain advantage or throw off their attackers.
in combat manoeuvring the pilot who uses his vessel to the best advantage and has superior skill, or equipment will have a definitive edge over his enemy., Leading to a one sided battle when well equipped and trained forces match up against less able, and less experienced forces.
Typically combat manoeuvring is the domain of small craft, armed shuttles, and fighters. However occasionally cutters, escorts, corvettes and frigates however this is extremely difficult at times, and puts larger vessels at a massive disadvantage when engaging smaller vessels
Time
Combat manoeuvring typically take place at adjacent ranges with the vehicles well within visual sighting range, this most often occurs around planets, large formations of larger vessels, and convenient obstructions and structures. To engage in combat manoeuvring. Both pilots must agree to engagement. Or the aggressive player must succeed in an Engage Manoeuvre , which then forces the opposing vessel to enter combat manoeuvring.
To engage in close combat, both vessels must be at adjacent range with one another and my not enter close range band or combat manoeuvring ends.
Size Limitations:
Only vessels of 1000 tons or less may choose engage in combat manoeuvring. Larger vessels are simply to massive and bulky to Manoeuvre in close quarters at the bone crushing velocities of smaller vessels. However a vessel
If a smaller craft so chooses, a vessel over 1000 tons can be FORCED into combat maneuvering, if a successful engage maneuver is executed. This puts the larger vessel in an extreme disadvantage. It may not execute any piloting maneuvers, or attempt to break away or revers it’s role in combat. It can only fire it’s weapons and attempt to open range to exit combat maneuvering.
A vessel cannot force a vessel more than two hundred tons smaller than itself into combat manoeuvring. the size differential simply allows too many opportunities to find positions where the opposing vessel can evade contact due to obstructions of view, blind spots in sensors, or gaps in weapons coverage.
This does not mean that smaller vessels cannot willingly enter combat manoeuvring with a larger vessel. In fact it gives them a superior advantage over larger vessels, which they may exploit by forcing the larger vessel to engage in combat manoeuvring.
For every 100, or fraction thereof, tons of difference between opposing vessels size the smaller vessel gains a DM+1 to all piloting checks while engaged in combat maneuvering.
This DM applies to any maneuver, or gunnery check made by the smaller vessels pilot. It lo applies as a negate modifier on the larger vessels gunnery actions during close combat.
Small craft formations, and ship size.
Fighters and small craft in formation have their total tonnage combined for determining thhe formations size. A squadron of 20, ten ton small craft is equivalent to a 200 ton ships for size considerations in close combat maneuvering.
Range:
Only vessels in adjacent range to one another can engage in combat manoeuvring. outside of the adjacent range band only intercept, or pursuit, manoeuvres can be executed to close the range bands to adjacent.
Vessels over 1000 tons can elect to engage in combat manoeuvring at close ranges however, but at no time can capital ships Engage in combat manoeuvring due to the massive size.
Weapons restrictions: Only turret, and barbette mounted weapons, may fire freely in combat maneuvering, bays,fixed mounts, are limited in firing due to the rapid position changes that occur in combat maneuvering.
Pilots may use an available Manoeuvre to bring bays, and fixed weapons into play but they must burn at least one Manoeuvre during a combat phase to do so. This action requires no piloting check. Unless the opposing pilot executes an evade, or negate advantage maneuver to prevent the pilot from firing his fixed/bay weaponry. At which pint he must win an opposed check wth the defending pilot to use his weaponry.
This only applies for weapons he has control over, to bring weapons under the control of gunners he must succeed in a gain advantage check.
This requires a check Pilot (average +0) and I considered a single maneuver for the purpose of tracking maneuvers. Weapons use may be limited further depending on the aggressor/defender Status of the vessel. The Aggressor vessel almost always has the advantage of bringing more weapons into play against a defender.
Larger vessels may find it difficult to bring a smaller vessel into its firing arcs at extremely close range. A vessel may freely fire a number of weapons equal to the percentage of its volume taken up by the opposing vessel ( a 20 ton fighter is 20 percent of a 100 ton vessel, so 20% of the larger vessels turrets ay fire.)
If the pilot wishes to allow his gunners to engage he must spend a maneuver to bring more turrets into firing position. (This is maneuver is allowed to vessels which would normally not gain any pilot maneuvers due to size.) however it may require multiple maneuvers to bring all guns onto target.
The larger ships gains that ability to fire it’s turrets at a target in blocks equal to the percentage of it’s volume taken up by the smaller ship
(The 20 ton ship mentioned earlier would require 4 maneuvers to give 1005 engagement by the larger vessels turrets.)
Thrust differences
Vessels with Higher thrust, than an aggressive vessel may accelerate out of the aggressive vessels combat engagement range by simply opening the range the range between the two vessels to the close, or short range. At this point the two vessels are forced to engage in normal ship combat as per normal combat rules.
To escape combat manoeuvring the defensive vessel must only succeed in an Evade, or open range Manoeuvre, and have a superior thrust rating over the aggressive vessel. This thrust number is determined by how many thrust points are available, if a vessel has designated a number of thrust points to manoeuvring then those thrust points are not used to determine if it can overtake, or escape from an opposing vessel.
Engage maneuvers
Engage: Pilot ( ships Type) Average +0 Result: both craft are now considered to be in close combat with one another. Initiative determined after successful engage Manoeuvre.
For a forced engagement check the craft that is attempting to force engagement is the aggressor vessel, and the vehicle attempting to refuse engagement is the defender. This applies only to the maneuver to force engagement. Aggressor, / defender roles for the actual combat will be determined by intiatives.
When attempting to force another vessel into Combat Manoeuvring, the following modifiers apply.
Additional modifiers may be applied if the following conditions exist.
Aggressor vessel has greater thrust number than defender: DM = Difference in Aggressors thrust value over defenders thrust value
Aggressor Vehicle is larger than defender: Dm -2
Aggressor Vessel Is smaller than defender: DM +2
Aggressor Vessel has impaired or jammed sensors: Dm -2
Defender Vessel has impaired or jammed sensors: Dm +2
Multiple vessels involved in Combat: +1/-1 per two vessels greater, or fewer than the opposing Side, if aggressor(s) outnumber the opposition the number is applied as a positive modifier to the engage Manoeuvre roll. If the aggressor is outnumbered then the modifier is applied as a negative die modifier..
Initiative: once vessels are engaged in combat manoeuvring the vessels must determine which vessel seizes the initiative. One vessel or group becomes the Aggressor having seized the initiative. Gaining favourable position, velocity, and range over the opposition. The Aggressor vessel has a significant advantage over the defender which will usually be forced into violently attempting to shake off, or evade pursuit and weapons fire to the exclusion of offensive actions.
Initiative for Combat Manoeuvring is more complex than normal combat, with more factors being involved due to the complexity of the situation.
Base initiative
pilot skill bonus+thrust points allocated to manoeuvring)Total Initiative: 2d6+ Base Initiative+ modifiers applied by GM, r situational modifiers.
Result: pilot with higher result becomes aggressor, opposing pilot becomes defender.
MANEUVORS And REACTIONS
Maneuvers and reactions are used in close combat and should be tracked separate. Maneuvers ae carried out by the pilot, or flight crew, while reactions may be carried out by pilot, by gunners, sensor operators, and other crewman if they have control of a systems, or weapons that can influence the outcome of a round.
Maneuvers: actions taken by the pilot of the ship, these do not include gunners, or other crewmen, which receive one action per round.
Reactions: these are actions taken as a response to some event, or action outside the pilot and crews own vessel these include point defense, and other actions that are listed as being an action available as a reaction.
During maneuvers each pilot may fire fixed weapons as a maneuver.
Each Pilot may execute one maneuver per round, plus thrust points dedicated to Manoeuvring
Due to the rapid action of the round thrust must be allocated before actions of manoeuvres are carried out and cannot be changed unless otherwise noted, or allowed by the referee.
Pilots of a defending vessel may only execute those manoeuvres which are described as being available to a defender. Any evasions granted to a vessel by evasion software may be executed by either pilot of the defending and aggressor vessel.
Burning initiative. If an aggressor vessel burns initiative to gain additional maneuvers reactions in a combat round it runs the risk of reversing the aggressor/defender role.
If the aggressor pilot reduces his initiative below the defenders initiative, then the defender may execute an automatic reverse engagement Manoeuvre with an additional +2 modifier to the check. this applied only to the first round the initiative of the two vessels change, if the round passes without the roles being reversed the roles remain the same until the next opportunity to reverse roles occurs.
Burning reactions: either pilot may sacrifice reactions to increase their initiative. Increasing their initiative, by the number of reactions they sacrifice.
This leaves them vulnerable to attack but may allow a defending vehicle to gain initiative and become the aggressor vessel if it wishes. If the defenders initiative at any time becomes greater than the aggressor, then the defender pilot may attempt to breakaway, reverse engagement, or increase range to escape combat manoeuvring.
In all Manoeuvre/action checks the acting pilot’s skill and attribute are applied as a positive modifier to the roll, and the opposing pilots skill, and stat modifier are applied as a negative modifier to the check.
2d6 + (Aggressor Pilot skill+pilots dexterity modifier)+(opposing pilots Pilot Skill+dexterity modifier)+/-( miscellaneous modifiers)
OPPOSED vs STATIC Checks
An opposing pilot may elect to make any piloting check an opposed check, by using up an available maneuver/reaction. If the pilot has no available maneuvers/reactions the check uses the above formula to determine modifiers.
However is a pilot uses up is available maneuvers and reactions to oppose maneuvers by the aggressor pilot he is totally on the defensive and cannot take any action to escape, or reverse his position. Leaving him at a serious disadvantage.
NOTE
The justification for this rule is that during close combat any number of small actions by either pilot are going on at once but are in the background rather than deliberate actions. Instead of taking all these split second actions into account it is assumed that they are taking place and effect the difficulty of the check, even if the enemy pilot cannot make a reasoned, deliberate action to resist a maneuver/action.
Defenders may not take actions unless specified in manoeuvre/action description. It is limited to reactions to the aggressor’s actions. Once the aggressor/defender rolls are determined by an initiative roll, the defender can only take reactions, until he escapes engagement, or reverses the engagement. This gives the aggressor pilot a distinct advantage in most situations.
Gunners aboard defensive vessels ay take their normal actions attempting to fire on the aggressor vessel if possible.
However, due to the close range, and high mobility of vessels in combat manoeuvring only turreted weapons, or barbettes may fire in an unrestricted manner. Bay, and fixed weapons can only be fired if the vessel is in an aggressor role, or a defending pilot can execute a reverse advantage Manoeuvre successfully.
A defender does not have to wait for the aggressor vessel to execute a Gain advantage, Manoeuvre to attempt a reverse advantage Manoeuvre. This is simply an easy method to simulate the defender pilot managing to position a vessel in such a way it can fire its weapons freely even if fixed or bay mounted.
The aggressor must designate one point of thrust to manoeuvring, or Combat manoeuvring ends. If this drops the aggressors available thrust below the available thrust rating of the defending vessel. The defending vessel may automatically attempt to execute a Breakaway Manoeuvre, or a revere engagement Manoeuvre.
Piloting Actions
If the pilot of the opposing vessel wishes to do so these maneuvers may be a skill versus skill check, this requires the pilot of the opposing vessel to expend a maneuver, or reaction to oppose a skill check,. Otherwise the check is made at the set difficulty
Intercept: Very Difficult -4
Result: aggressor vessel matches defenders course, allowing it to attempt to engage in Combat Maneuvering. Aggressor must be closing with or at an angle to the Defender Vessel. If the if the target vessel is moving away from, or at a wide angle to the intercepting ship. The interceptor must have a higher thrust rating than the target vessel.
Pursuit: Average +0
Result: Aggressor vessel matches course and speed from behind allowing it to engage in close combat, Aggressor vessel must possess similar or Higher thrust rating.
Engage: Average +0
Result: both craft are now considered to be in close combat with one another. Initiative determined after successful engage Manoeuvre.
Breakaway: Difficult -2
Result: The defender vessel break contact and may attempt to flee, or attempt to reverse the engagement becoming the aggressor. May be executed as a defender reaction.
Fire weapons: Gunnery, Normal attack DMs, Difficulties apply
Result Pilot may engage with fixed or bay weapons available to him firing one weapon system per maneuver.
Open Range: Difficult -2
Result: the vessels move into close range from one another and combat manoeuvring ends. Requires the vessel attempting to open range have more available thrust than opposing vessel. May be executed by defending vessel as a Manoeuvre, or reaction.
Gain Advantage: Very Difficult -4
Result: The aggressor Gains a +2 DM to all pilot and Gunnery checks against the defending vessel A gain advantage check may be used to allow the gunners of a ship to use bay, or fixed weapon. If used in this manner it grants no bonus.
this maneuver can be used by a defending vessel to allow gunners to use bay or fixed weapons against an aggressor vessel by a defending vessel. If used in this way it grants no bonuses, does not negate enemy bonuses, or change the aggressor/defender role. It simply allows a defending a vessels gunnersl to use its own bay and fixed weapons from a defensive posture.
Evade: difficult -2
Result: the defending vessel applies a -4 Modifier to all pilot and gunnery checks made against it. may be executed as a defender Manoeuvre or reaction by the pilot.
Shadow: very difficult -6
Result: Defenders weapons may not be fired at the aggressor vessel, until shadow maneuver is canceled, or a successful Evade, Neutralize advantage is executed.
Neutralize advantage: Difficult -2
Result: Aggressor advantage Neutralized. Can be forced to prevent another vessel from firing bay, or fixed weapons at the defending vessel.
Reverse advantage: Formidable: -6
Result: defender vessel gains the benefits of advantage over the Aggressor vessel which loses all advantage bonuses. May be executed as a defender reaction. T
Reverse Engagement: very Difficult
Result: Vessels reverse roles, aggressor becomes defender, defender becomes aggressor. May be executed as a defender reaction
Spoiling Manoeuvre: Average +0
Result: Supporting vessel imposes a -2 DM on aggressor vessel. Requires multiple vessels in Combat manoeuvring, Aggressor may switch focus to spoiling vehicle without engage Manoeuvre.
Gunnery Actions:
Fire fixed weapons: Average +0
Result: A single turret, fixed, or bay weapon strikes the opposing vessel, may be carried out by both aggressor, and defender vessels. requires the pilot to execute a successful pilot check modified by the opposing vessels pilot skill, and dexterity modifier. May only be executed by aggressor vessel, unless otherwise noted.
Spoiling fire: Difficult -2
Result: imposes a -2 modifier on Aggressors piloting checks. Aggressor may ignore spoiling modifiers but is automatically struck by defenders fire.May be carried out by defender only,
Bracketing fire: Average +0
Result: defender must evade, or the Aggressor gains a +2 DM to next gunnery action. Aggressor must have multiple weapons and gunners.
Leading fire: Difficult -2
Result: Defender, or aggressor must successfully evade or suffer an automatic hit, may be attempted by either Aggressor, or defender
Pattern fire: No check
Result: Aggressor must evade or suffer a single hit by defenders weapons. Requires multiple turreted weapons, or bays.
Supporting fire: Average +0
Result: defender/aggressor gains +1 per vessel in support of defender/Aggressor , may be executed by defender or aggressor, requires multiple vessels in Combat maneuvering
Other crewman:
Sensor operators, comms operators, engineers and commanders may take a action during a Close combat round as per standard combat rules. They do not gain any additional actions per round due to number of maneuvers, or reactions. Granted to the ship by various actions and maneuvers.
Rockymountainnavy
Mongoose
Solomani666 said:
I don't think the original question was answered...nor do I think it was it fully understood.
I think the OP is asking, "When dogfighting, a ship gets 60x the number of combat actions; does this make sense?"
In my opinion, the shift from a 6-minute Space Combat Round to a 6-second Dogfight Round is too dramatic a shift in time. Let's not get carried away...maybe a simple shift from a single 6-minute Space Combat Round to six 1-minute Dogfight Rounds achieves the same effect (cinematic dogfighting) without going overboard. This would be a shift of one increment in the Timeframes Table (p. 60) and seems more reasonable.
In all honesty a close combat maneuvering encounter is over in one minute. usually its over in less than a minute.
either one or both combatants are burning wreckage, one combatant elects to break off contact, or the combatants mutually disengage. dogfights are quiet realistically measured in seconds, not minutes.
either one or both combatants are burning wreckage, one combatant elects to break off contact, or the combatants mutually disengage. dogfights are quiet realistically measured in seconds, not minutes.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The general idea is to get a bead on the opposing craft at close quarters, while making it as difficult as possible for him to do the same to you.
Dicta Boelcke the first basic text on dogfightng is still considered the source of modern air to air combat tactics. It's been updated, and refined but the basics are still as solid as the were when Boelcke wrote them.Condottiere said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke
in Traveller the application of the tactics would change slightly due to the nature of space, but the basic tactics would be roughly the same.
I'm thinking we really need to look at bringing this to 10-60 second rounds for dog fighting.
With space being 1-6 minute rounds.
The 6 to 1 ratio is more than enough... the 60 to 1 is a bit crazy.
Besides - 10 to 60 seconds is very much realistic for the shortest period of a dogfight. Sometimes it may go minutes, sometimes is resolved in under a minute!
It's the 360 dogfights per 1 space combat turn ratio that cccrraaaazy
If you wan to think of a theoretical extreme. In the one space combat turn, the ace fighter pilot in the advanced fighter can shoot down 360 obsolete enemy pilots! Yes it's cinematic lol - but... I can't even think of that with a straight face
With space being 1-6 minute rounds.
The 6 to 1 ratio is more than enough... the 60 to 1 is a bit crazy.
Besides - 10 to 60 seconds is very much realistic for the shortest period of a dogfight. Sometimes it may go minutes, sometimes is resolved in under a minute!
It's the 360 dogfights per 1 space combat turn ratio that cccrraaaazy
If you wan to think of a theoretical extreme. In the one space combat turn, the ace fighter pilot in the advanced fighter can shoot down 360 obsolete enemy pilots! Yes it's cinematic lol - but... I can't even think of that with a straight face
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
I think this is a good idea. Worth exploring for sure.Nerhesi said:I'm thinking we really need to look at bringing this to 10-60 second rounds for dog fighting.
With space being 1-6 minute rounds.
The 6 to 1 ratio is more than enough... the 60 to 1 is a bit crazy.
Besides - 10 to 60 seconds is very much realistic for the shortest period of a dogfight. Sometimes it may go minutes, sometimes is resolved in under a minute!
It's the 360 dogfights per 1 space combat turn ratio that cccrraaaazy
If you wan to think of a theoretical extreme. In the one space combat turn, the ace fighter pilot in the advanced fighter can shoot down 360 obsolete enemy pilots! Yes it's cinematic lol - but... I can't even think of that with a straight face
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