Does Effect apply in Starship combat?
- Thread starter Infojunky
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ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
I say, "Sure, why not." Combat is combat. Did a video of it.
By the rules as listed, it doesn't, although I know some people who use it anyway.
Equally, it did in the playtest version (where there wasn't a seperate damage roll, your damage was based on the effect of your attack times a multiplier due to the weapon)
The argument often made is that Traveller starship combat is usually 'firing solutions on a spreadsheet' rather than sighting up down a gunsight, which means it's difficult to strike a 'weak point' - the usual 'real life' justification for effect damage.
Equally, it did in the playtest version (where there wasn't a seperate damage roll, your damage was based on the effect of your attack times a multiplier due to the weapon)
The argument often made is that Traveller starship combat is usually 'firing solutions on a spreadsheet' rather than sighting up down a gunsight, which means it's difficult to strike a 'weak point' - the usual 'real life' justification for effect damage.
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Firing a spacecraft gun or a hand gun makes no difference to me as far as rolling a skill check goes. There just needs to be a target though. I would want a character with a higher skill to target weak spots.
locarno24 said:
See that is a ambiguous answer at best, as the Editing and Completeness of the writing leave lots of room for either argument. Plus the use of Effect in terms of missiles implies that it is indeed used.
locarno24 said:
See another indication that it was at least considered. I would like to see the mechanics presented in that draft, because it parallels some work I have been doing for an alternate set of combat rules....
locarno24 said:
But the converse of that is the singular task system that used in every instant where dice are to be thrown....
All things considered, armor protection isn't equal throughout a structure, where for example an outside curve of a spacecraft's ogive is much more resistant to being penetrated that a connecting point such as a right before a wing root. So if armor is an averaging value, then the high effect value is striking a weak point.
spidersrepublic
Mongoose
I've heard some people say "space combat is just a huge slogging match, trying to get past each others armor" While i don't exactly agree (yet - i haven't run many MgT space combats) certainly adding effect would help speed things up.
So i think yes: Effect should be added to damage in space combat.
If you want space combat to take ages and be endless rounds of fire, counter-fire, then by all means don't add effect. ( i originally was going to run my campaign like this)
BUT if you want space combat to have the same pace as normal Combat, add the effect! Add everything! Ships should annihilate each other quickly in this universe of no-shields.
And also allows supremely skilled gunners to actually damage heavily armored ships.
Don't forget the rule that states "Any effect of 6 or higher always inflicts at least 1 point of damage, regardless of armor"
I suppose the best way to answer is to test out both ways, adding and not adding effect. see which one you and your PCs like best
So i think yes: Effect should be added to damage in space combat.
If you want space combat to take ages and be endless rounds of fire, counter-fire, then by all means don't add effect. ( i originally was going to run my campaign like this)
BUT if you want space combat to have the same pace as normal Combat, add the effect! Add everything! Ships should annihilate each other quickly in this universe of no-shields.
And also allows supremely skilled gunners to actually damage heavily armored ships.
Don't forget the rule that states "Any effect of 6 or higher always inflicts at least 1 point of damage, regardless of armor"
I suppose the best way to answer is to test out both ways, adding and not adding effect. see which one you and your PCs like best
It certainly lends an air of uncertainty to space combat that can be utterly lacking in some situations (notably 6 and 12 points of armor), making weapons that would be utterly useless into the kind that can have an impact on a lucky shot or that can be made to sing in the hands of an expert.
"That thing's impervious to laser fire."
"Not if you know where to hit it, it isn't..."
"That thing's impervious to laser fire."
"Not if you know where to hit it, it isn't..."
Infojunky said:
Exactly what the gents above me mentioned. It makes combat more uncertain; which depending on what your players like, is either good or bad.
Some are of the mind that if you have enough/advanced protection, then certain weapons no matter how well you hit, should still do nothing (Rifle vs Tank armor scenario).
However, if theyre of the mind that luck should play more of a role rather than strategy or are comfortable with that D&D-Thaco-Always hit on a 20 style then allowing effect would definitely work.
Finally, it also makes the majority of combat small-craft obsolete since they're probably around 0/1 hull with an armor of 7-12+ so that is making them immune to beams and or pulse lasers and missiles respectively. However, with +effect added to damage, you suddenly have a lot more usefulness for beams/pulses other than just point defence in higher TL battles.
This, for me, is the real clincher. So many advanced combat craft out there with huge batteries of missiles... that are utterly useless against their most likely enemies. With Effect allowed, those missiles are now at least a little useful, even if you do have to go nuclear to get any real effect.Nerhesi said:
Nerhesi said:
Combat is always Uncertain, that is why we avoid it as much as possible.
Nerhesi said:
Ah.... Ok then. Meaning I know of a dozen ways to mission kill a tank with a rifle, they all require skill and some sizable element of luck, which Effect provides. That and this is an RPG so isn't it better to always give the PCs a Chance?
Nerhesi said:
See you state the case for wonderfully, also in the linage of Traveller which the Mongoose edition descends armor never completely protected a ship from damage ever. Armor only lessened the chances of a Critical hit (in the Naval Combat sense not the DnD sense) in the 1st rounds of combat.
Agree to disagree on the luck aspect 
Me and my group tend to prefer more controllable probability curves (multiple dice vs one for example) but also we really like to limit how luck/craziness plays into things. Example rifle vs tank, or mongol archer vs power armor and so on.
I know some people like that but it just strikes us as a bit silly.
And I, as a referee/gm would not generally put them in impossible situations where they couldn't penetrate the armor of the antagonist in a combat situation for example
Me and my group tend to prefer more controllable probability curves (multiple dice vs one for example) but also we really like to limit how luck/craziness plays into things. Example rifle vs tank, or mongol archer vs power armor and so on.
I know some people like that but it just strikes us as a bit silly.
And I, as a referee/gm would not generally put them in impossible situations where they couldn't penetrate the armor of the antagonist in a combat situation for example
Nerhesi said:Agree to disagree on the luck aspect
Ah a sign that you have never been in combat.....
Nerhesi said:
That i can understand, I pondered for a while of using 3 d34's to generate a 1 to 100 range with a center at 50.5.... But it was soon discarded as too much like work.
But I did ask a very specific question and we can digress into the the number and statistical theories around combat situations with the inevitable descent into quantifiable chaotic elements that may or may not directly affect the outcome. All of which becomes a Die throw of a die with n-sides with each discrete possible outcome in respects to all possible combatants and bystanders.
Though with that last line of reasoning I can see a linear system that preserves Normal results through the use of that Ancient and currently oft forgot Combat Results Table (CRT). But I suspect we should leave that level of programed result aside for now.....
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
I'm so glad Mongoose minimized the use of Combat Result Tables. And didn't use the old '80s Combat Matrix Charts. Wargamers shouldn't be using RPG rules for their wargames.
I would definitely like to see more use of the natural curves from multiple dice, and agree that Effect might not be the right means to get past the absolute finality of the armor situation. Maybe something like the effect roll on missile guidance? Where it's not a one-to-one ratio of effect to damage bonus, but a +1 to damage for effect 1-3, for example.Nerhesi said:
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