Divine Magic and POW...

[iamtim]

Ok, so, I'm somewhat lost on all the POW concerns relating to Divine Magic. As I understand it, this is how it works (or, probably more correctly, this is how I interpret it):

Your character, with a POW of 14, takes on 2 magnitude of Divine Magic. His actual POW is still 14, but his effective POW is 12.

He later takes on an additional 3 magnitude of Divine Magic. Actual POW is still 14, but his effective POW is 9.

He casts 2 magnitude of Divine Magic, leaving his actual POW at 14 but his effective POW goes back up to 11.

He then improves his POW; this takes his actual POW from 14 to 15, and his effective POW from 11 to 12.

Finally he casts the remaining three magnitude of Divine Magic, bringing his effective POW up to the same level as his actual POW: 15.

Am I interpreting Divine Magic incorrectly, or is something going on that I'm missing?

 

[RMS]

I don't know the answer because I'm still waiting on my copy of the Companion to get shipped out. (I'm cheap and ordered it through Amazaon to save $, but that's meant a couple week delay on my other items and now apparently this one.) Also, the system sounds significantly different from former versions so I can't venture a guess.

I do have a couple of questions regarding divine magic though. In the above case of the POW 14 character, is that character then limited to 14 (or 13?) points of divine magic? During that time the character is effectively at POW 1, but this doesn't really affect anything does it. Spells are resisted by persistence or resilience, so no POW vs. POW or MP vs. MP rolls. I guess MP are down for casting Rune Magic if the character has both. I assume that MP storage devices will still be around in Glorantha, or similar high magic campaigns, so that experienced characters will have a MP reserve to pull from. Am I missing anything at this point?

Here's the next question though. In RQ2/3 it was common to have experienced priests and rune lords with 20, 30, or even 40+ points of divine magic. Is that still possible? If so, how? Also, is there any difference in how initiates vs. priests or rune lords for mechanics of divine magic now, or is that just a game play difference? I suppose a priest or rune lord could at least have their allied spirit load up with magic too....

 

[iamtim]

In the above case of the POW 14 character, is that character then limited to 14 (or 13?) points of divine magic?

Yes; p10 of the Companion states, and I quote, "If a Divine Magic spell's magnitude would reduce a character's POW to less than 1, it will not be granted to that character."

In RQ2/3 it was common to have experienced priests and rune lords with 20, 30, or even 40+ points of divine magic. Is that still possible?

I dinna think so, lad.

Keep in mind, though, that the Divine Magic spells are fairly potent and cast quickly. And, unlike Rune Magic, Divine Magic spells can be split into several lower magnitude spells; so if your character knows Absorption at magnitude 3, it can be cast once at that magnitude, or twice with one at mag 2 and one at mag 1, or thrice at mag 1 each.

 

[RMS]

In RQ2/3 it was common to have experienced priests and rune lords with 20, 30, or even 40+ points of divine magic. Is that still possible?

I dinna think so, lad.

Keep in mind, though, that the Divine Magic spells are fairly potent and cast quickly. And, unlike Rune Magic, Divine Magic spells can be split into several lower magnitude spells; so if your character knows Absorption at magnitude 3, it can be cast once at that magnitude, or twice with one at mag 2 and one at mag 1, or thrice at mag 1 each.

That was true before too. Divine magic was 2 for 1 vs. Spirit Magic (now Rune Magic) or Sorcery, it was instantaneous, and never failed to go off. Plus, you could stack up lots of points worth in some spells, like Absorption, or Shield (10 pts. of Shield up in an important battle wasn't all that rare), or for a really nasty Thunderbolt. Sounds like Divine Magic is has a cap on potential out of the box, but we'll have to see how it gets integrated into Glorantha. (Keep in mind that PCs or NPCs with this amount of Divine Magic are certainly rare and the movers-n-shakers in the land, but they are around as both PCs and NPCs in the old published material.)

I really am anxious to read the Companion for myself. Damn my cheapness!

 

[CharlieMonster]

There is nothing in the rules to clarify whether or not "dedicated" POW is taken into consideration when raising POW, maybe that is something Mongoose can clarify. Majority opinion leans towards allowing the PC to ignore it when attempting to raise POW but that any regained POW which would lift the character beyond species maximum is lost. Otherwise priests are pretty much hamstrung when it comes to divine magic.

See also my posts on Divine Benefits for Runepriests for an alternative house rule I am toying with.

 

[iamtim]

There is nothing in the rules to clarify whether or not "dedicated" POW is taken into consideration when raising POW

Hmm.

I can't see any reason it wouldn't be. The POW isn't sacrificed like in earlier versions of RQ; instead it's dedicated to the spell, but still belongs to the caster. It's just being used to control and retain the "divine knowledge" of the spell.

Majority opinion leans towards allowing the PC to ignore it when attempting to raise POW but that any regained POW which would lift the character beyond species maximum is lost.

That seems really wonky to me, but to each his own. Honestly, it sounds like the concept of a POW sacrifice is being brought forward from earlier versions of RQ and being applied where it doesn't apply.

Again, to each his own.

 

[CharlieMonster]

That seems really wonky to me, but to each his own. Honestly, it sounds like the concept of a POW sacrifice is being brought forward from earlier versions of RQ and being applied where it doesn't apply.

Hmmm you could be right, the problem is if there is no way of gaining more DM than species maximum POW, divine priests are a bit buggered, especially if they belong to cults who traditionally require "suites" of spells to be effective. I'm thinking of tricksters and their illusions. And on the assumption that "Transform" spells work the same way in this edition.

On the other hand the "default" for the new RQ is less magic, maybe Gloranthan Magic or Cults of Glorantha will include rules for stockpiling divine magic A'la "Glorantha Tradicionale".

Its the old story of negotiating the line between being effective and risking Munchkinism :lol:

 

[Exubae]

What happens to a priest who in iniates in a second cult?
I.E An orlanth Priests join Issaries, does this mean your dedicated POW is now split between the two cults, it makes duel membership pointless.

Bob the Orlanth Priest POW 16
Orlanth - 8 pts dedicated
Issaries - 4 pts dedicated
4pts left for rune magic and defense against/boosting magic.

Which implies he is a pretty poor all rounder.

 

[Vadrus]

What happens to a priest who in iniates in a second cult?
I.E An orlanth Priests join Issaries, does this mean your dedicated POW is now split between the two cults, it makes duel membership pointless.

Bob the Orlanth Priest POW 16
Orlanth - 8 pts dedicated
Issaries - 4 pts dedicated
4pts left for rune magic and defense against/boosting magic.

Which implies he is a pretty poor all rounder.

He would also need to work on Theology Orlanth and Theology Issaries if he wanted to actually cast anything, no automatic success when casting Divine magic anymore.

Divine Magic seems to be the redheaded stepchild of the MRQ magics at the moment, far cheaper and more effective to learn sorcery instead or even rune magic come to that at least you'd get the bonuses from the integrated runes and still have enough MP to actually cast the spells.


Vadrus

 

[Vadrus]

Life seems hard as a priest, not only will all other casters laugh at you for your 15 minute spells that you can only cast every couple of days at best, but Divine Intervention is still based on rolling under your POW, so if you dedicate POW for magics does your chance of your God assisting you decrease?

And yes, if you do succeed, your God still takes a chunk of your POW leaving you even more useless than before or even dead if he really likes you. :twisted:


Vadrus

 

[iamtim]

Orlanth - 8 pts dedicated
Issaries - 4 pts dedicated

I think that's the confusion there -- you don't dedicate POW to a cult or a god, you dedicated it to the spell. So Bob wouldn't dedicate 4 points to Orlanth, he'd dedicate 4 POW to Absorption and 4 POW to Berserk.

You should be able to mix and match your dedicated POW to any number of spells from any number of cults you happen to be an Initiate in.

 

[iamtim]

so if you dedicate POW for magics does your chance of your God assisting you decrease?

Of course; Divine Intervention should be a total last ditch effort, IMHO. If you need to call upon your god for assistance, you should have already cast most -- if not all -- of your Divine Magic spells in an attempt to fix the situation yourself.

Divine Magic seems to be the redheaded stepchild of the MRQ magics at the moment

Remember, Rune Magic is the "default" magic for RuneQuest now. It seems to me that Divine Magic and Sorcery are "support" magics.

I wonder if Mongoose RuneQuest isn't being looked at too closely with RQ3-tinted glasses, when it should be looked at as it's own related game, different yet similar, sharing a name and a common ancestry with the classic Chaosium/Avalon Hill game.

 

[Halfbat]

I wonder if Mongoose RuneQuest isn't being looked at too closely with RQ3-tinted glasses, when it should be looked at as it's own related game, different yet similar, sharing a common name with the Chaosium/Avalon Hill game o fthe same name.

A v good point, tim. Divine Magic is very different in MRQ and changes the ball park (or moves it to a different place).

It's worth remembering that once Dedicated POW is recovered, that's it - the Divine Spell is lost and the Dedicated POW isn't dedicated any more. So a Priest who needs to set up a shrine can grab Consecrate 8, cast it, then be free to use that POW/MP for other things, such as a regular Magnitude 8 Extension (128 hours) every 6 or 7 days, coupled with an Absorption, Fear, Spirit Block or Shield.

After that, he's free for a while to do what he needs - grab a Regrow Limb or two or any other spell that would be useful in the meantime. He would have to have a high POW to fuel other spells, of course, but after studying Enchantment an experienced Priest is almost certain to have a Power Enhancer and Spell Enhancer (grab them guys, whilst you can!) which will reduce the amount of MP needed.

Observation that's just come to me: there's no way of creating an MP storage device - you're limited to Crystals.

The limits on POW _do_ limit the amount of Divine magic, though... as was mentioned no 40-point Divine Magic Runepriests any more. But, there's nothing to stop doubling the permissible POW or upping it by 50% or whatever.

 

[Exubae]

Tim Wrote

You should be able to mix and match your dedicated POW to any number of spells from any number of cults you happen to be an Initiate in.

Thats not the point I was trying to express, the point was the amount of free MP's left for Rune Magic.

The balancing argument for powerful re-usable Divine magic in RQ2/3 was the loss of POW and the time/cash the cultist has dedicated. But at least the cultist could build up his POW after the sacrifice.
In MRQ the cultist is stunted by mechanic behind 'remembering' divine spells.
Can POW exceed racial max. in MRQ? at work so I can't check this out.
If not then the priest who is dedicated to his god and flock is going to be heavily penalised by the 'less' dedicated priest who spends his time robbing graves and murdering potential converts (for their prized possessions, in the hope of gaining a MP storing item).

The rules stress HP/XP as the mechanic for gaining POW, skill, even cult priest hood, which in part I'm in favour of, but I'ld have prefered a more 'role play' method of joining a cults priesthood:
Tasks.
Preeching to the unwashed masses.
Show of devotion to Deity.

I admit the required skills in RQ2/3 wheren't much better but converting cult status to a legendary skill seem 'odd' - does that mean every godi and heirophant, in every village and town needed to be a staunch adventurer to a mass the HP/XP to attain their priesthood.
I'm ok with Rune Lords and High Priests using HP/XP they have a certain legendary feel, but the common Priests... it just feels counter-intuative.

I'm just hoping that the Glorantha Cults series take a different view, well I live in hope.

 

[Halfbat]

[...]I'ld have prefered a more 'role play' method of joining a cults priesthood:
Tasks.
Preeching to the unwashed masses.
Show of devotion to Deity.

I admit the required skills in RQ2/3 wheren't much better but converting cult status to a legendary skill seem 'odd' - does that mean every godi and heirophant, in every village and town needed to be a staunch adventurer to a mass the HP/XP to attain their priesthood.
I'm ok with Rune Lords and High Priests using HP/XP they have a certain legendary feel, but the common Priests... it just feels counter-intuative.

Such normal tasks seem to be covered by Acolytes, now. They become the lower-level priests, and do not neep the Hero Points (I'm confused by your use of XP, btw).

It's worth bearing in mind that priesthood in MRQ is not the same as in RQ2 given the changes in Divine Magic. Initiaties may still be granted access to such, but an Acolyte in a temple can act in almost every way as a RQ2 priest (see some of the plans at the back of the Companion).

 

[iamtim]

Remember, folks... Rune Magic = default magic system. Cults give out Rune Magic, not Divine Magic. Priests should be flush with Rune Magic, with maybe a spell or two of Divine Magic for special needs, I think.

You can't keep looking at MRQ through RQ3-tinted glasses. It won't work that way. It's a different game with a common ancestry and name, and magic is not the same in MRQ as it was in RQ3. Comparing the balancing factors in RQ3 to those in MRQ is pointless, as it's a different design.

 

[RMS]

You can't keep looking at MRQ through RQ3-tinted glasses. It won't work that way. It's a different game with a common ancestry and name, and magic is not the same in MRQ as it was in RQ3. Comparing the balancing factors in RQ3 to those in MRQ is pointless, as it's a different design.

The issue here is that the mechanics do influence how you view the world of Glorantha. This change alone makes the world function much differently. It also makes 3rd Age supplements far less useful for GM and players, which is unfortunate.

Yes, Rune magic is given out by the cults, but that's always been so. The difference is that now it appears that priests and rune lords won't be much to fear (from their magic alone) unless there's something missing. There's still a Magic of Glorantha and a Cults of Glorantha to come, so maybe we're waiting for yet more rules additions in those. In my case, I'm just confused and without the book here (on it's way) it's even more confusing trying to follow these conversations.

 

[Exubae]

The general line of thought on 2nd Age magic was that it was supposed to be more powerful, it was hyped as an age rich in magic...
Its not really the case is it?
Characters are distinctly less magical in ability than their third age counterparts (RQ3). Unless by more magical there is some implication of a deluge of magic items?

Paul

 

[Rurik]

The general line of thought on 2nd Age magic was that it was supposed to be more powerful, it was hyped as an age rich in magic...
Its not really the case is it?
Characters are distinctly less magical in ability than their third age counterparts (RQ3). Unless by more magical there is some implication of a deluge of magic items?

Paul

The 'more powerful' magic of the second age datailed in the Magic of Glorantha book is the God Learner and Dragon Magic, which has no real equivelent in 3A Glorantha.

Which has me thinking that maybe the reason the 'old 3' magic systems have been toned down is to make room for this new 4th tier of magic without the mechanics being totally game wrecking.

In the past we had (in ascending order of power):
1) Battle/Spirit Magic (now Rune Magic)
2) Rune/Divine Magic (now Divine Magic)
3) Sorcery (much harder to master than Divaine Magic but potentially very powerful)

Now we have:
4a) God Learner Magic
4b) Dragon Magic

Which are supposed to be more powerful than Divine and Sorcery - both of which were pretty powerful as far as magic systems in RPG's go.

 

[Rurik]

I just got back from being away for a couple of weeks and don't have my Companion yet (I should before day is out though).

Am I correct in understanding that Magic Points are effectively reduced as you learn more Divine Spells? Or do they stay at the level of the unmodified POW?