Deneb Sector and Solomani Rim Now Available
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Manchester is lucky with 3 game shops of varying quality, and I would like to keep it that way so I try to buy paper copies from them - also I still tend to find it easier to read a book than a computer screen.
Come on mongoose, get these books printed and sent out to the local game stores
Come on mongoose, get these books printed and sent out to the local game stores
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Somebody said:
True, but the publishers not even doing print runs to distribute to them is a tad unfair on them, no?
It's hard to keep going as an RPG store if the publishers won't sell you RPGs to sell on to your loyal customers.
LBH
lastbesthope said:
Consider the reverse - is it fair for a publisher to print a book if shops do not buy them?
Don't panic too much about this, it is not an 'end of the world' thing and we will be going into more detail on it in the State of the Mongoose this year.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
msprange said:
Yes but what's the pointnof being a publisher if you "Don't publish and get damned for it" to paraphrase. If you make good books, people will ask for them in their shops and the shops will order them. You do seem to make god books, so not printing them for shops to stock seems .... well wrong basically.
As for a "fair", if you don't want to print books for distribution what's the point of being a publisher. You don't ask if it's fair for someone to open a fast food franchise if noone decides to go there and eat their food.
I get my books from my FLGS cheaper than I get them from Mongoose, it gives Mongoose, Esdevium and my FLGS their cut, and I don't pay postage on top of the purchase price. Win win YMMV
LBH
I am still old fashioned. If I do not have a physical book, I don't buy the PDF and play the RPG. The only reason I have PDF's with no physical books is because I got them free, or as a reward for donating to Earthquake relief, etc... via drivethru RPG. So if Mongoose wants me to keep buying their products, they better keep providing print books. If they want to sell directly to me, I do not care, but they had better drop their price to me since they are removing two middlemen. If they don't that will also make me stop buying. So I am definitely interested in seeing what is going to be said in the "State of the Mongoose".
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Treebore said:
Excellent points well made. I agree. And yes if the only way to buy the hardcopy is direct from Mongoose then the concept of an RRP is meaningless. In the past they said they can't sell for less than RRP so as not to undercut physical stores, but if that is no longer a consideration as physical stores don't get copies then the prices should come down. ANd I know the markup between the seeling price to the distributor and the selling price in shop to the customer is not to be sneezed at.
Or ideally allow strores to buy the books.
Treebore said:
So true, so very true. I am the same. I like physical books, I can put a finger or post-it betwen the pages and flip back and forth instantly and accurately, more so with a book than a file.
LBH
Somebody said:
I agree websites are not for free, and I also know drivethru takes a very big percentage. Still, having once owned a business, and having done my own market website with more than enough bandwidth to handle my traffic, I also know Mongoose, or anyone, can do PDF sales for a lot less than doing print products out of storage facilities. I forget how many Gig of bandwidth I had, but it cost me an amount each month most families can afford by giving up a pizza night out each month.
Treebore said:
I am going to take you to task on this
It may not be commmon knowledge (though, given the world economy, I would venture it should be obvious), but every RPG company you care to name, bar _maybe_ one or two (I caveat that, as I heard recently how many copies a supplement for a _very_ well known and supported RPG sold - if I divulged that, it would _stun_ you how few were sold), is fighting for its life right now.
You lot (you know... them
) have stopped buying books, retailers have closed down or switched product lines, while costs on _everything_ have risen. Hand on my heart, if Mongoose had not gone back to miniatures (a slightly more stable market) we would likely have folded two years ago. Things are that tight with RPGs.
Producing your average 256 page hardback, even in black and white, takes a lot more resources than you might think. It goes way beyond the high four figure printing mark. The writer will take another four figures. Art is likely to take more. Editing and proofreading all take their chunk. And that is before a single book leaves the building; I haven't gone into fixed and ancilliary costs like someone to organise which book goes where, packing materials, electricity, phones, and all the other things that make a company work.
We then have to knock off 60% from the cover price to get them into distribution - but that is not the biggest issue. The main problem is that we have x number of books from the print run sitting in our warehouse for months on end. Every one of them represents a few Dollars tied up and inaccessible to the company. Sure, they will sell... over the next 4-5 years, but companies need money now, not way in the future.
When the distribution network constricts, this problem becomes acute. Cash flow stalls, and _that_ is what kills companies more than anything else. Ultimately it is what killed all those games companies of old. Remember Guardians of Order?
There comes a point when you have to start being very careful about what goes to large scale printing. If we did this with all RPG products, we would simply run out of money. Suitable analogy: Driving a car at high altitude, where cash is oxygen and the engine simply starves for breath - right now, the RPG industry is pretty high up in the Andes.
So, you switch to digital printing (and we started this about five years ago, relying on it more and more as time went on). Each book now costs more to print individually, but the overall bill is lower as you no longer need to print so many - this eases cash flow.
But then the market continues to slide downwards to the point where you might not be making any money at all on books going through distribution - remember, those writers, artists and layout guys all still need paying and their rates DO NOT CHANGE dependant on whether the book goes to print or stays electronic.
On the flip side, ebook sales are accelerating nicely - but they are nowhere near the point where they can support a company by themselves (and I say this as one of the larger vendors on Drivethru). In a couple of years, maybe, but the problems we face are happening now, not then.
Your suggestion is that I should cut the price of our books? Remove what little margin remains? Speaking honestly, I would be better off giving you a Pound and thanking you for your support in the past.
One way or another, you will always be able to get a hardcopy of our books. If you have a philosophical issue with what is being charged for them, then I am _very_ sorry to lose you as a customer. But there is no choice in the present climate. What you are suggesting would finish off RPGs altogether for us.
I'll back up Mr Sprange on this: niche markets, tight margins and short cash flows are a hard spot to run a business. I just received my certification in financial management on my last year in getting a business degree, so this exactly out of the text book how business finances run. What he isn't saying about the cash flows, is that many countries collect business taxes quarterly, and you would have to get a line of credit to pay taxes if you are short on cash and to get that line of credit, first thing they want to see is a statement of cash flows; meanwhile the money in product in the warehouse is losing value due to the time value of money.
I don't want to see the local FLGS go under either, people have just got to be creative to stay afloat, it is a tough market. For example, I could see maybe making sure most game stores have a core rules on the shelves and writing it off on advertising, but that doesn't necessarily help the store.
I don't want to see the local FLGS go under either, people have just got to be creative to stay afloat, it is a tough market. For example, I could see maybe making sure most game stores have a core rules on the shelves and writing it off on advertising, but that doesn't necessarily help the store.
msprange said:
Here here. I'm very very glad to hear this (the hard copy book thing) and very worried at the same time. It's hardly surprising but... well, you know.
I haven't been able to buy any mongoose products in about a year (no cash + family) but I always try to buy hard copies when I can.
Thanks for clearing it up Matt
msprange said:Treebore said:
I am going to take you to task on this
It may not be commmon knowledge (though, given the world economy, I would venture it should be obvious), but every RPG company you care to name, bar _maybe_ one or two (I caveat that, as I heard recently how many copies a supplement for a _very_ well known and supported RPG sold - if I divulged that, it would _stun_ you how few were sold), is fighting for its life right now.
You lot (you know... them
Hand on my heart, if Mongoose had not gone back to miniatures (a slightly more stable market) we would likely have folded two years ago. Things are that tight with RPGs.
Producing your average 256 page hardback, even in black and white, takes a lot more resources than you might think. It goes way beyond the high four figure printing mark. The writer will take another four figures. Art is likely to take more. Editing and proofreading all take their chunk. And that is before a single book leaves the building; I haven't gone into fixed and ancilliary costs like someone to organise which book goes where, packing materials, electricity, phones, and all the other things that make a company work.
We then have to knock off 60% from the cover price to get them into distribution - but that is not the biggest issue. The main problem is that we have x number of books from the print run sitting in our warehouse for months on end. Every one of them represents a few Dollars tied up and inaccessible to the company. Sure, they will sell... over the next 4-5 years, but companies need money now, not way in the future.
When the distribution network constricts, this problem becomes acute. Cash flow stalls, and _that_ is what kills companies more than anything else. Ultimately it is what killed all those games companies of old. Remember Guardians of Order?
There comes a point when you have to start being very careful about what goes to large scale printing. If we did this with all RPG products, we would simply run out of money. Suitable analogy: Driving a car at high altitude, where cash is oxygen and the engine simply starves for breath - right now, the RPG industry is pretty high up in the Andes.
So, you switch to digital printing (and we started this about five years ago, relying on it more and more as time went on). Each book now costs more to print individually, but the overall bill is lower as you no longer need to print so many - this eases cash flow.
But then the market continues to slide downwards to the point where you might not be making any money at all on books going through distribution - remember, those writers, artists and layout guys all still need paying and their rates DO NOT CHANGE dependant on whether the book goes to print or stays electronic.
On the flip side, ebook sales are accelerating nicely - but they are nowhere near the point where they can support a company by themselves (and I say this as one of the larger vendors on Drivethru). In a couple of years, maybe, but the problems we face are happening now, not then.
Your suggestion is that I should cut the price of our books? Remove what little margin remains? Speaking honestly, I would be better off giving you a Pound and thanking you for your support in the past.
One way or another, you will always be able to get a hardcopy of our books. If you have a philosophical issue with what is being charged for them, then I am _very_ sorry to lose you as a customer. But there is no choice in the present climate. What you are suggesting would finish off RPGs altogether for us.
You actually support my pint. If you stop selling via game stores, and go to primarily selling direct to me, and your other customers, you are changing the fundamental pricing model books have operated under for many decades. You, and other companies like Kenzer, claim to charge us full retail when we buy direct from you because you say you would rather we buy from the stores, so keep your price high to support the stores.
If you change your stance, and sell to us direct, and tell the stores "Good luck!" then you no longer have the justification of charging us full retail. You yourself just stated you add 60% to the retail cost to account for the cuts you give to the distribution chain.
So if you continue to charge us full retail, when selling direct to us is your new priority, then yes, you, and any RPG company who does the same, will lose me as a customer.
Bottom line is I already have far more than enough RPG books to game for the rest of my life. I am already doing any RPG company I buy books from a big favor, because I am buying something I absolutely do not NEED.
I primarily buy Traveller from you. I have two copies of the core book and I own all but 3 or 4 books you have put out so far, including the maps. I also already own tons of Traveller material put out, primarily Classic and MegaTraveller. The ONLY reason I have been buying your books is for convenience. You guys have compiled, reformatted, and reorganized all of that material into all these nice books. I don't buy these books because I don't already have the material, some where. I buy it because you make any info I want easier to find, easier to put together.
I've already debated with myself, many times to quit buying RPG books. Not just yours, but everyone's. Why? Because the books do cost a lot. So to be smart with my money I should only buy books I NEED. I bought the books I need to play all the RPG's I like, Legend of the 5 Rings, Eclipse Phase, Castles and Crusades, Cthulhu Tech, Supernatural, Savage Worlds, etc... as soon as I bought the core book, or books, for each RPG. Whether those books are print or PDF, I do not need any book after the core. I easily spend over $1,000 each and every year buying RPG stuff. I then spend 1 to $2,000 more each year going to conventions, usually with my wife and kids.
I spent nearly $200 this month alone buying two of your books and two Legend of the 5 Rings products. Their new Second City boxed set took up nearly half of that money by itself ($70.00 US) Did I NEED any of these books to play L5R or Traveller? Heck no.
Not too long ago I spent over $300 US on Reapers Kickstarter mini's package. This year I am already over $1,400 spent on RPG products, and I still have November and December to go!
I spend a lot of time thinking about what my family could have done instead with all that money, despite the fact that we game together. Day trips, Camping trips, an extra vacation, going out to more movies, having dinner out one or two times more per month, etc...
So after writing this, I guess it just comes down to one simple fact. I think I am just looking for a good reason to stop buying so much RPG stuff. So simply put, if I get that good reason to stop, I'll take it.
So go ahead, do what you feel you need to do, because I will do the same. Its only fair. I already have far more than I need from you to play Traveller, Judge Dredd, Conan, etc... for the rest of my life. Its not like I will truly miss out on anything I cannot do without. Hopefully the flip side is true for you, you don't need me for your company to stay alive. Looks like we will be finding out.
dragoner said:
And, likely goes without saying, the banks are _no_ help right now. They are not giving an inch to small businesses (back bone of the economy, that's what we are!).
Treebore said:
But... that is not what I said.
What I said was that margin can no longer support an RPG company. What I am saying is that the market has changed. It has declined to the point where that margin is the only thing that allows the book to come out at all.
Look at it this way, an extreme example. Suppose there was only one person in the world that wanted the next Traveller book - we could not (obviously) produce it and sell it at a 60% discount. We could not sell it at the current RRP, not if we wanted to start producing another book the next day. It would be several thousand Dollars, and there is no way you could buy it in a shop.
Silly example? No. That is _exactly_ what is happening today in the market. You have to multiply the number of buyers up from one - but you won't have to multiply it by all that much...
lastbesthope said:
Pete, if only we had more like you
barnest2 said:
My friend, we are all in the same boat these days. No one has any money...
msprange said:
I did just buy some mong pdf's through DTRPG, I will buy more (being a poor student again at 44 is hard, but it won't last forever); if Mongoose can just weather this storm...it's tough, I won't jinx it by saying it will get better, but imo it can't stay bad forever. I was at my FLGS and asked about Mongoose products and they said they were going to get some star fleet minis in.
IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
I noticed the increased emphasis on miniatures. I'm coming to the end of a reading break and will resume running Traveller games - soon, I hope, but I've got household stuff to spend my time on as well. My players are casual gamers so I end up on buying the books. Partly because RPG books go out of print, partly to accommodate my players, I have bought multiple copies of the Traveller Core Rule Book and the various Traveller universes.msprange said:It may not be commmon knowledge (though, given the world economy, I would venture it should be obvious), but every RPG company you care to name, bar _maybe_ one or two (I caveat that, as I heard recently how many copies a supplement for a _very_ well known and supported RPG sold - if I divulged that, it would _stun_ you how few were sold), is fighting for its life right now.
You lot (you know... them
Hand on my heart, if Mongoose had not gone back to miniatures (a slightly more stable market) we would likely have folded two years ago. Things are that tight with RPGs.
