Twin-Linked Aldades
Mongoose
Burger said:
If that theory did exist, the world would be brabbling antwerpian flemish at the moment...
Demo Report: Battle of the River Plate
- Thread starter Dredd Times
- Start date
If that theory did exist, the world would be brabbling antwerpian flemish at the moment...
Twin-Linked Aldades
Mongoose
No, since that isn`t made in Flanders any more
DM said:
Not really an irrelevance.
Militarily perhaps (but see below), Politically and diplomatically not. It allowed Roosevelt and his supporters proof that the British were deadly serious about fighting on against Hitler's tyranny, allowing all sorts of out and out aid to be sent to the UK (although it got called almost anything but 'aid'). Without such evidence on the ruthlessness of the British it is very doubtful that the necessary help would have been forthcoming (and various letters of the time support this). And without that help it is almost certain that terms with Hitler would have had to be sought at some stage.
Militarily: If Hitler had reneged on the terms of the armistace with the French (and he was hardly known for keeping to the terms of diplom,atic agreements) then the French fleet would have posed a truly serious problem for the British. It would have been strong enough to threaten the Channel (and thus increase the risk of invasion), if they had sallied the British fleet would have had to respond, allowing the Luftwaffe to hit the fleet in numbers.........although this is all conjecture it was considered to be a real threat (and why the decision to attack was made).
Anyhow....just my 2 cents......
Chernobyl said:
Not read them (have read some Turtledove stuff but find a lot of his premises to be to absurd to really get into his work).
The idea of having a division or two along with the strike force at Pearl is something I have talked through with other gamers at various points. It is something that could well have succeeded as well as the US Military there was well and truly battered by the attacks.
Fortunately the audacious attack was not THAT audacious and we never had to find out its consequences.....now that I find Turtledove has written on the subject I might look to grab a book from the library and see what it is like.
No one even mentioned Midway yet? Sheesh :?
I would say the single-most important "Naval" battle in WW2 was the attack on Pearl Harbor, for the reasons mentioned earlier. FDR had been re-elected on a platform of isolationism, promising the US voters to not get involved in the war in Europe. I do realise he was indeed preparing for war nonetheless, and had gotten very close to the line with the lend-lease act to help Britain. US public opinion, as it seems happens a lot over the years, was split and there was no majority need to go to war. I've thought for some time of how small things (the Butterfly Effect) can have major influences in history. Japan needed the Philippines for strategic and resource needs and as it was a territory of the US then the US Pacific Fleet needed to be neutralised as a consequence. If the internal explosion (not sabotage) of the old second-class Battleship Maine had not happened and thrust the US into world-power status defeating Spain in 1898, Spain would have "owned" the Philippines and the Japanese expansion might have been able to bypass a war with the Americans. Hmm, maybe a time traveler from the future felt he needed to go back in time and drop a match into the coal bunker of the old Maine while it sat at anchor in Havana harbor, eh? Harry Turtledove, eat your heart out :wink:
I would say the single-most important "Naval" battle in WW2 was the attack on Pearl Harbor, for the reasons mentioned earlier. FDR had been re-elected on a platform of isolationism, promising the US voters to not get involved in the war in Europe. I do realise he was indeed preparing for war nonetheless, and had gotten very close to the line with the lend-lease act to help Britain. US public opinion, as it seems happens a lot over the years, was split and there was no majority need to go to war. I've thought for some time of how small things (the Butterfly Effect) can have major influences in history. Japan needed the Philippines for strategic and resource needs and as it was a territory of the US then the US Pacific Fleet needed to be neutralised as a consequence. If the internal explosion (not sabotage) of the old second-class Battleship Maine had not happened and thrust the US into world-power status defeating Spain in 1898, Spain would have "owned" the Philippines and the Japanese expansion might have been able to bypass a war with the Americans. Hmm, maybe a time traveler from the future felt he needed to go back in time and drop a match into the coal bunker of the old Maine while it sat at anchor in Havana harbor, eh? Harry Turtledove, eat your heart out :wink:
Dredd Times
Administrator
I think that way to many of you are reading far to much into one simple sentence in this thread. The thread isnt about which was the most crucial or famous battle of WWII at all just simply a battle report nothing more or less.
Marc
Marc
Captain_Nemo
Mongoose
Marc, I love Naval actions and WW2 history but like many people who read mostly about their own country's experiences I know very little about other countries' battle history. All I asked was for a bit more info than what's on the wikipedia. I thought I had missed something. 
Dredd Times said:
Marc, although it might sound as though you are being picked upon, well you are :wink: . Nah, not really. But as with any topic that people are interested in and have some knowledge (and/or curiosity) regarding it, what appears to be a casual statement can justly open the way for further discussion. Matthew Sprange had the best answer to what you stated, but by then the thread had "moved on" to a deepening discussion of what indeed might be the single most important naval battle of World War Two. It's not even off topic, as many of these forum discussions end up becoming. You just happened to hit upon a great subject, even if it was not intended. :wink: If someone were to make a list of the greatest naval battles in the war over all of the waters on the globe, the Battle of the River Plate would earn a place on the list, but it would not be at the top. Now that at least 500 hobbyists realise you aren't going to defend it with your life's blood (heh), we can say "good battle report" and move on. If on the other hand you are claiming more wet surface than the South Atlantic occupies, you need to bring some good evidence for that contention. Here is how I might rephrase that "simple sentence": "The Battle of the River Plate was the first major naval battle of World War Two and the scuttling of the Panzerschiff Admiral Graf Spee was a great boost of morale for the British." It was one of the first battles that was covered worldwide by the press to a great degree, as the scuttling was viewed by thousands of onlookers. So yes, it was a key battle in the war, just not the key battle. Thus, the discussion. Cheers, and keep up the great work. BTW, for those like johng859 who wish to learn more, here is a link to a story regarding the salvage of the complete sunken ship and it being made into a museum-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4702832.stm#map
Captain_Nemo
Mongoose
Wow! That's some hunk of bronze 
What a cool story. Thanks Buships!
What a cool story. Thanks Buships!johng859 said:Wow! That's some hunk of bronze
When I stumbled onto the fact that the ship (yes, the entire ship!- at least that's what I took) was going to be salvaged (and not for razor blades :shock: ) and made into a museum, I was very pleased. As there are probably no bodies on the ship to argue that it be a war grave, the ship is very likely the only candidate for recovery. For example, the USS Arizona doesn't have any parts of the white viewing structure placed in 1961 touching the ship due to it being a war grave. The only item that does is the U.S. flag and flagpole that is attached directly to the broken mainmast of the battleship.
Remember that Churchill was seriously considering having an RN submarine torpedo a US DD in order to pretend a U-boat did it and bring the US fully into the war – at this point they were a very, very biased neutral (and a lot more use than some allies). Fortunately the Japanese saved him the bother and Hitler declared war on the USA – oops!
I was surprised to see the Commonwealth ships fairing so badly in the playtest. In reality the Exeter did take a pasting so I suppose things were not insanely out of line.
I was surprised to see the Commonwealth ships fairing so badly in the playtest. In reality the Exeter did take a pasting so I suppose things were not insanely out of line.
BuShips said:
I did. 8) But it depends on how one measures the importance of the sea battles. It was certainly the battle that ended any outside hope of victory for the Japanese.
However Japan was stuffed the moment she entered the war by attacking America. A Midway almost certainly would have happened sooner or later and the destruction of the Japanese fleet was inevitable given the fact that the industrial might of the US would overwhelm her eventually. If the battle had gone the other way the was might have dragged on another year or so (ditto if the carriers had been caught at anchor in Pearl).
The battles in the European theatre were more important since Germany had the capacity to win the war. Japan did not. If Hitler had access to a half decent navy then the threat to Britain would have been substantial.
The battles in the Pacific theatre were obviously far more impressive and substantial, but Japan sealed her own fate.
Pearl might not have been as vital if Hitler had not decided to declare war on America in its aftermath........
Of course it is impossible to really judge any order of importance of the various battles as the battles themselves significantly changed the course of the war. If Pearl never happened would Hitler have won in Europe? Quite possibly, but by no means a certainty. Without Mer el Kebir would the Royal Navy have been lured out of their Scottish bases into the bombsights of the Luftwaffe leading the way to a possible invasion of the UK or a peace deal in the west? Who knows?
Mind you the conjecture is all fun. (At least for a geek like me.....)
