Deducing what a middle class income for a single adult in the 3I

[MarcusIII]

First a working definition:

"Ordinary living is how most people live in city centers: an apartment, public transit or a small personal vehicle, reasonable food and clothing, reasonable entertainment, and modern healthcare."

For one person in the USA that could be accomplished with about $3,500 a month not living in a place like NYC, London, etc.. That equates to about Cr700/month. Let's say 750 where Cr50 is extra for savings. Cr50 = $250 in today's $.

So, we see that the lowest paid Ship crew member at Cr1,000 makes a middle class income for themselves. Pilots and Engineer positions are definitely upper middle class at Cr6,000 & Cr4,000 respectively per month.

Quality of life	Monthly
Ordinary Soc 6-8	Cr700

 

[Limpin Legin]

Roughly about what I would expect. I have heard on the Discord that in 1977, Cr1 = $1 approximately. That was said to work out to be about Cr1 = $8 in today's $.

Also, refer to CRB pg 98 for SOC vs. Standards of Living guidelines. According to that source, Soc 6-8 would be about Cr1200 - Cr2000 per month.

In the 3I setting, I'm not saying my numbers are any more right than yours, I just passing on the discussions I have seen.

 

[MarcusIII]

Roughly about what I would expect. I have heard on the Discord that in 1977, Cr1 = $1 approximately. That was said to work out to be about Cr1 = $8 in today's $.

Also, refer to CRB pg 98 for SOC vs. Standards of Living guidelines. According to that source, Soc 6-8 would be about Cr1200 - Cr2000 per month.

In the 3I setting, I'm not saying my numbers are any more right than yours, I just passing on the discussions I have seen.

Yes, Marc once said that he pegged the Cr at the $ level when he wrote the game. I was using 1977- 2025 $ inflation rate at about 6 times or $6 for Cr1. But close enough for approximation. And the monthly amount will of course vary by system and TL. So, we're close enough probably to get an idea.

 

[Condottiere]

I used one to five conversion rate.

A couple of years ago, I came to the conclusion it's now/then one to six.

Rumour has it, there might be a deliberate policy, or even accidental, to drop the value of the greenbux, in order to be more competitive in international trade.

As regards mid bourgeoisie income, it tends to be what you can afford locally, and that varies regionally.

 

[Endie]

First a working definition:

"Ordinary living is how most people live in city centers: an apartment, public transit or a small personal vehicle, reasonable food and clothing, reasonable entertainment, and modern healthcare."

For one person in the USA that could be accomplished with about $3,500 a month not living in a place like NYC, London, etc.. That equates to about Cr700/month. Let's say 750 where Cr50 is extra for savings. Cr50 = $250 in today's $.

So, we see that the lowest paid Ship crew member at Cr1,000 makes a middle class income for themselves. Pilots and Engineer positions are definitely upper middle class at Cr6,000 & Cr4,000 respectively per month.

Quality of life	Monthly
Ordinary Soc 6-8	Cr700

I hope that the compounding effect of economic growth fuelled by improvements in productivity and technology over a few millenia, even with the odd Long Night to set things back a bit, will leave society a bit richer than "slightly poorer than the average person in Illinois".

I mentioned in the thread of which this is an offshoot that I'd built a sheet for my PoD campaign to use the WBH to model the GWP and taxation for various worlds. What it shows is that, according to the T5 economic extension data in the wiki, inequality is massive between rich and poor worlds. Using the official figures, Sperle (Ri Wa) has an average GWP/Capita of Cr48,989 while Clarke has only Cr4,992. These are not the extreme cases.

Of course, GWP/Capita is not median income, but we have a lot of good, real-world GDP/Capita -> median income data to see the correlation.

Edit: the lowest I have found so far is the nuclear-war-blasted, corrupt anarchy of Ergo, which is TL3, has no starport and is red-zoned, where average economic activity per capita comes to about 6.5 credits a month: a bit lower than South Sudan. So South Sudan after getting nuked, I guess.

 

[MarcusIII]

I used one to five conversion rate.

A couple of years ago, I came to the conclusion it's now/then one to six.

Rumour has it, there might be a deliberate policy, or even accidental, to drop the value of the greenbux, in order to be more competitive in international trade.

As regards mid bourgeoisie income, it tends to be what you can afford locally, and that varies regionally.

Brilliant!!!!

 

[Arkathan]

The core rulebook actually tells us:
SOC 7 = Cr1500 Cr/month
Using 50/30/20 - Needs/Wants/Savings, the Average Joe makes around Cr3,000 per month.
If you choose to call middle class above average, then higher Cr4000-Cr5000.

 

[Endie]

The core rulebook actually tells us:
SOC 7 = Cr1500 Cr/month
Using 50/30/20 - Needs/Wants/Savings, the Average Joe makes around Cr3,000 per month.
If you choose to call middle class above average, then higher Cr4000-Cr5000.

That fits the figure for Clarke, certainly.

 

[rinku]

I'm good with Arkathan's figures, but it will vary wildly from world to world.

A lot of them will be more socialist, with basic needs covered. Even to the degree that basic needs there would be considered luxury elsewhere.

Some of those will be harshly authoritarian, with the State doling out very basic needs. Others would be more utopian, with wealthy automated economies allowing the citizens to focus their energies on higher things than base survival. In both cases, "average wage" is skewed for different reasons.

Other worlds with little to no central authority or services may require self-sufficiency. At which point, the stated costs may be a bit meaningless. You tend the farm, or barter, and no one is paying rent or mortgage. That would definitely include spaceship people. They pay life support costs and their share of what it takes to operate the ship. I would not use the CRB living costs for a belter, as an example.

 

[MarcusIII]

That would definitely include spaceship people. They pay life support costs and their share of what it takes to operate the ship. I would not use the CRB living costs for a belter, as an example.

Yes, live/work aboard lifestyle is totally outside that econ picture. Same with low TL sustenance existence.

 

[Condottiere]

The simple question, might be, with that stated income, how much would the consumer pay for that service or product, and would he go into debt to finance it?

 

[actionman]

First a working definition:

"Ordinary living is how most people live in city centers: an apartment, public transit or a small personal vehicle, reasonable food and clothing, reasonable entertainment, and modern healthcare."

For one person in the USA that could be accomplished with about $3,500 a month not living in a place like NYC, London, etc.. That equates to about Cr700/month. Let's say 750 where Cr50 is extra for savings. Cr50 = $250 in today's $.

So, we see that the lowest paid Ship crew member at Cr1,000 makes a middle class income for themselves. Pilots and Engineer positions are definitely upper middle class at Cr6,000 & Cr4,000 respectively per month.

Quality of life	Monthly
Ordinary Soc 6-8	Cr700

Interesting topic.



If Cr700 is a monthly Soc 6 - 8 income, that means it takes 3 months pay to travel one parsec, or 1 month's pay if a character wants to take his life in his hands. This means that people who aren't rich rarely travel, and they don't travel very far if they do. The only non-rich people who would be widely traveled are people who were traveling with someone else's money, like ship crews, merchants paid for by the company, and military personnel. Space losers wouldn't be wandering around looking for work, because it would cost them a month's middle class pay every time they did, even in a low berth.

 

[rinku]

Right. But don't forget... they're losers! Unwise decisions are their bread and butter (which was probably stolen).

The need to jump in a coffin and get the heck out of Dodge may very well be a higher priority than responsibly paying last month's rent*. Especially if that money was borrowed from a loan shark...

(* Although realistically it's going to be NEXT month's rent, in advance, you space hobo...)

There's also the role playing you might choose to do, this being a role playing game, in order to get that passage without credits. Skilled characters always have the Working Passage angle; there might be a contact or ally that can help. Passage as a job reward is often on the cards. Crime.

 

[Condottiere]

How many openings are there, onboard starships, for dishwashers?

 

[rinku]

One per 8 middle passengers.

 

[To Tha Moon!]

I always thought middle-class was based off of a family.

Two parental units, two and a half kids and a dog-equivalent.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It is cultural and Soc dependent...

an American working class guy has more earning power than an affluent upper class Sudanese...

and that's the problem with trying to calculate this stuff, "yanks in space..."

the baseline is always western liberal democracy rather than looking outside the box, where the majority of the Earth's population lives.

Use India as the baseline, or China...

 

[Arkathan]

I always thought middle-class was based off of a family.

Two parental units, two and a half kids and a dog-equivalent.

No, that is a sign of the nuclear family, and was an indicator of success, along with good work values.
Because people raised in such a stable environment were less likely to submit to totalitarian controls, they conspired to destroy that, make people less successful, less intelligent and more dependent on the government.

 

[Condottiere]

Overcomplicating it becomes socio economic.

It used to be one income can provide for two adults, two and a half kids, and a mortgage.

Plus proto Vargr.

Now, double income, no kids, yeah.

DINKY

 

[MarcusIII]

The need to jump in a coffin and get the heck out of Dodge may very well be a higher priority than responsibly paying last month's rent*.

IMTU I figure that most Low Passagers are in dire circumstances where a small risk of death is preferable to staying put...