Dawn of a new Age of forumkind....
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Locutus9956
Mongoose
2nd Edition isnt perfect and lord knows there are times when Katadder does come across as a little closed minded but that list of 'over the top ships' was frankly rediculous. Anyone thinks the Apollo is broken for example I would say needs to play the game more. The only ship in the Centauri list I would say is maybe still a bit too good is the Sullust but thats its not really that bad now with the changes to beam in that you can counter it fairly effectively with lots of smaller ships.
And then we have the much debated Bluestar. Im sorry but I'm getting tired of hearing about how 'overpowered' the Bluestar is. Noone I know whos fought with or against them ever has had any major issues. Theyre good yes, but they die easily enough if you just shoot at them. The problem some people seem to suffer from is they seem to think the bluestar is too good because if they just leave it alone and chuck the odd secondary dice at it it should die, if you consider them a threat actually fire at them properly and they will die really quite quickly, trust me on this! If your opponent is really really jammy when it comes to rolling dodges they can be annoying of course but on average theyre just not the mosters people think they are.
And then we have the much debated Bluestar. Im sorry but I'm getting tired of hearing about how 'overpowered' the Bluestar is. Noone I know whos fought with or against them ever has had any major issues. Theyre good yes, but they die easily enough if you just shoot at them. The problem some people seem to suffer from is they seem to think the bluestar is too good because if they just leave it alone and chuck the odd secondary dice at it it should die, if you consider them a threat actually fire at them properly and they will die really quite quickly, trust me on this! If your opponent is really really jammy when it comes to rolling dodges they can be annoying of course but on average theyre just not the mosters people think they are.
High Sierra
Mongoose
im loving the new edition.
Vree are amongst the hardest to play well.
yes they are very quick and maneouverable. Yes they can hand out alot of hurt, but those hulls are STILL vulnerable.
Vree are amongst the hardest to play well.
yes they are very quick and maneouverable. Yes they can hand out alot of hurt, but those hulls are STILL vulnerable.
All very interesting, I am a little surprised by that broken list though, Im guessing you have your reasons, but the apollos broken? really?
Im going to have to nip the Drahk thing in the bud though, I recently played in a local tournament, same structure as the upcoming mongoose one, I took drahk and scored 20 points every round save for the last where I scored 17.
So out of 4 rounds verses Vorlons, Narn, Crusade Ea and Drazi, with a fleet of a strike crusier (with on board heavy raider) a light crusier two Light raiders and two heavy I scored 77 out of 80 potential points!, so I have to say I'm a litte sceptical about anyone saying the Drahk don't work.
Im going to have to nip the Drahk thing in the bud though, I recently played in a local tournament, same structure as the upcoming mongoose one, I took drahk and scored 20 points every round save for the last where I scored 17.
So out of 4 rounds verses Vorlons, Narn, Crusade Ea and Drazi, with a fleet of a strike crusier (with on board heavy raider) a light crusier two Light raiders and two heavy I scored 77 out of 80 potential points!, so I have to say I'm a litte sceptical about anyone saying the Drahk don't work.
I think the Drakh issue was an overreaction, they don't have an AF trait... they NEVER had any AF guns anyway apart from a dodgy ass beam on the cruiser, and the Light raider. they will play as they always have, they have enough secondaries, and a Geg (which IS overated but thats a different arhument) to help protect against fighters, and raiders are fast anough to outrun most fighters anyway the new beam mechanic makes up for the naff hulls making drakh more surviveable.
Locutus9956 said:
right on the nose there (regarding the ships anyway :wink
the only thing that jumped out as not right was the Shaddow fighter - another one wing for the Patrol point and it would have been fine. BUT, if you think about how many Shadow players would take fighters anyway its probably a mute point.
Also, I really, really dont get the Drakh issue. NOTHING has changed for them with regards to their anti fighter ability or the damage they can take from them. If they were complaining about the increased numbers of fighters maybe. As has been said before at least they get a defence against the longer ranged missiles of the thunderbolts and their like.
All in all a great improvement - thank you!
Frohike said:
There is a small discussion on this subject on another thread (about 14 pages
) but has tailed off now as both sides (well one side being pretty much Katadder on his own ) seem to be are at polar opposites ...........on you last bit - at some times you have to take fighters as no other choice
I guess that most ships are ALOT better rounded out now. Espeically the iconic ones, that actually draw people into the game. So no obvious ranting subjects there. Da Boss has hit a good subjects so it isnt really ranting as more of a clamoring to get good stuff.
And there doesnt seem to be a ship like the Sag in Armageddon. Already overpowered, and gaining yet another boost.
I havent got the book yet, but i love most fleets now. EG Dilgar do not reduce themsleves to 2-3 actual ships now. Fleet list give you actual choices instead of pitfalls of "useless" ships.
And there doesnt seem to be a ship like the Sag in Armageddon. Already overpowered, and gaining yet another boost.
I havent got the book yet, but i love most fleets now. EG Dilgar do not reduce themsleves to 2-3 actual ships now. Fleet list give you actual choices instead of pitfalls of "useless" ships.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
With regards to the shadow fighters, I wont start the whole thing off again here but they could use a little tweak perhaps but its hardly a game breaking issue really 
As for the Drakh, I'm sorry but the 'Drakh have been nerfed' threads all read like the sort of whining you get in GW games from the powergamers whenever they tweak one of the slightly overpowered factions to balance them. All of a sudden those players arent winning games without having to actuall use some cunning and tactics and so they cry bloody murder because GW or Mongoose or whoevers publishes the game in question has oh so unreasonably snatched back their 'I win button'....
Now I'm exagerating slightly here for effect of course, I wouldnt say the Drakh were broken prior to 2nd ed but they WERE definitely one of the stronger fleets in the game and very nasty. The 2nd Edition Drakh are STILL very nasty, if anything I'd say theyre even more dangerous with the new beam rules making them comparitively LESS vulnerable to due to their low hull scores and their own prevalence of beam weapons on even their smallest ships makes them horrific in attack. And lets not forget the Agile trait on all those raiders.
Their vulnerability to fighters is frankly unchanged. They dont have the anti fighter trait now but then they never had any antifighter guns previously either so how is this unfair? Just because other races are possibly SLIGHTLY LESS vulnerable than they used to be is irrelevant, especially considering the Drakh dont USE fighters except for the odd breaching pod and also consider that most races get antifighter as a replacement for actual weapons with the AF trait they used to have. Drakh raiders with their dodge scores are actually SAFER than they used to be!
Lastly we have the matter that short of the odd crits, even GEG 1 generally grants more or less total imunity to most fighter attacks and takes a hell of alot of the sting out of even the nastier torpedo bomber types!
Im tempted to play a Drakh fleet in the next campaign and sweep all before my with great vengeance just to prove the point but Im sure this isnt necessary as I daresay most players here will know exactly what Im talking about anyway!
As for the Drakh, I'm sorry but the 'Drakh have been nerfed' threads all read like the sort of whining you get in GW games from the powergamers whenever they tweak one of the slightly overpowered factions to balance them. All of a sudden those players arent winning games without having to actuall use some cunning and tactics and so they cry bloody murder because GW or Mongoose or whoevers publishes the game in question has oh so unreasonably snatched back their 'I win button'....
Now I'm exagerating slightly here for effect of course, I wouldnt say the Drakh were broken prior to 2nd ed but they WERE definitely one of the stronger fleets in the game and very nasty. The 2nd Edition Drakh are STILL very nasty, if anything I'd say theyre even more dangerous with the new beam rules making them comparitively LESS vulnerable to due to their low hull scores and their own prevalence of beam weapons on even their smallest ships makes them horrific in attack. And lets not forget the Agile trait on all those raiders.
Their vulnerability to fighters is frankly unchanged. They dont have the anti fighter trait now but then they never had any antifighter guns previously either so how is this unfair? Just because other races are possibly SLIGHTLY LESS vulnerable than they used to be is irrelevant, especially considering the Drakh dont USE fighters except for the odd breaching pod and also consider that most races get antifighter as a replacement for actual weapons with the AF trait they used to have. Drakh raiders with their dodge scores are actually SAFER than they used to be!
Lastly we have the matter that short of the odd crits, even GEG 1 generally grants more or less total imunity to most fighter attacks and takes a hell of alot of the sting out of even the nastier torpedo bomber types!
Im tempted to play a Drakh fleet in the next campaign and sweep all before my with great vengeance just to prove the point but Im sure this isnt necessary as I daresay most players here will know exactly what Im talking about anyway!
I'm thinking now that the only two choices that are "blatantly" better/worse than the rest are:Frohike said:Locutus9956 said:
right on the nose there (regarding the ships anyway :wink
the only thing that jumped out as not right was the Shaddow fighter - another one wing for the Patrol point and it would have been fine. BUT, if you think about how many Shadow players would take fighters anyway its probably a mute point.
Also, I really, really dont get the Drakh issue. NOTHING has changed for them with regards to their anti fighter ability or the damage they can take from them. If they were complaining about the increased numbers of fighters maybe. As has been said before at least they get a defence against the longer ranged missiles of the thunderbolts and their like.
All in all a great improvement - thank you!
Demos - Basically very similar to a Vorchan but has an Interceptor as well
Shadow Fighter - I think that this has been discussed enough
Other than that, we all may have our preferences but frankly they aren't cut and dried and not everyone agrees with each other's assessments.
Beams are just silly now, after several more games with 2e, we are not at all pleased with the craziness of the beam rules. I can understand they wanted to give beams more power, but the randomness of beams just takes away any feel of actual tactics from the game. Beam spamming is now the tactic of choice really, just the ridiculous amount of rolling you just tears stuff apart. Also from the games we have been playing with 2e, the races that don't have access to good amounts of beams or many beam weapons at all, appear to be at a huge dissadvantage. Beam heavy forces just got a huge boost, while those without tons of beams got a big ole hit to their effectiveness.
I could have seen possibly one reroll for beams, but continual rerolls..... even with a 4+, when your rolling bunch of attack dice, its very easy to continually get 4+ on rolls, and with many/most beams dealing double/triple damage, the damage just adds up insanely fast.
It also just doesn't make any sense, no matter what you shoot at you have the same odds to hit it...... so it doesn't matter the speed/armor/mobility of a unit, beams hit all things the same..... hurray for lack of realism.
I could have seen possibly one reroll for beams, but continual rerolls..... even with a 4+, when your rolling bunch of attack dice, its very easy to continually get 4+ on rolls, and with many/most beams dealing double/triple damage, the damage just adds up insanely fast.
It also just doesn't make any sense, no matter what you shoot at you have the same odds to hit it...... so it doesn't matter the speed/armor/mobility of a unit, beams hit all things the same..... hurray for lack of realism.
Knight of ne
Mongoose
Kyle81 said:
It makes them more inkeeping with the show but apparently its less effective against low hull ships.
Knight of ne
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
Personally I'm not a big fan of the randomness added, considering how much effort went into making tactics a big hallmark of 2nd Ed. I can see them as adding a lot of potential power but obviously if you've got a 4+ target, you've got equal chances to roll nothing as you do of rolling hits. (My personal luck leans toward getting through that Stealth etc and then rolling a series of 1s and 2s for the beam.) Right now the defense from beams isn't hull but high damage/crew scores, dodge, stealth and shields.
Beams should never have been able to magically reroll forever.... we've had games where beam dice would get rerolled over 6 times.... wth...
If they wanted a sustained effect they should have simply allowed ONE reroll of the attack dice for each hit, not the silliness of continual rolls.
Our games with the new beam rules feel more about beam luck than any actual tactics anymore.....
If they wanted a sustained effect they should have simply allowed ONE reroll of the attack dice for each hit, not the silliness of continual rolls.
Our games with the new beam rules feel more about beam luck than any actual tactics anymore.....
