Damage to gear

[Jak Nazryth]

For ships and vehicles the rules cover how much damage is dealt and how much it will cost to repair or replaced damaged components. But what about personal gear?
Specifically Armor.
Be it jack, poly-carapace, Combat armor, or battle dress, are there any rules regarding damaged to personal armor? Its obvious that if anyone takes physical damage while wearing any type of armor, it must mean that holes are being punched through the armor, or slashes and rends if getting hacked by a cutlass, mono-sword etc...?
Any body know of specific rules for this common situation? Any house rules?
Or is this a simple game mechanic that really never has been addressed before?
Big battle coming up when my players will be forcing their way on board a 200 ton far trader they disabled last game. There will be lots of fighting and lots of damage. I'm just wondering what happens to their own gear after the fight, and to any gear they loot off the dead pirates.
Suggestions?

 

[Jeraa]

Its obvious that if anyone takes physical damage while wearing any type of armor, it must mean that holes are being punched through the armor, or slashes and rends if getting hacked by a cutlass, mono-sword etc...?

Not necessarily. Extensive bruising and other damage can occur even if a round does not penetrate armor. That seems to be what happens, if you look at the healing rules, and how fast it is.

An injured character regains a number of characteristic points equal to his 1d6 + Endurance DM per day of full rest.

Bullet wounds or sword slashes do not heal that quickly, implying that the damage isn't actually that bad.

At least until you are considered seriously wounded, and require surgery. If its bad enough to require surgery, then you know some major injury happened, and there is probably a hole in your armor somewhere.

A character is considered seriously wounded if he has lost at least one point from all three of his physical characteristics.

Surgery: A character who is seriously wounded (after first aid has been applied) requires surgery.

 

[locarno24]

There's no set rules, even then.

If I have a ballistic vest and take an effect 6+ hit from a sniper rifle, it probably means that the shot hit me in the head. Assuming I survive, the armour's probably fine.

A laser or single bullet - at least on a non-gel, non-reflec vest and not of a ridiculous calibre, is probably pretty focused and the armour is probably still wearable. If the armour's made of modular elements, you probably just need to remove the damaged element and it's fine.

If similar damage was inflicted with three or four blows from a chaindrive sword, however, or several bursts from an automatic shotgun, it's going to be ripped to shreds.

It's one of those things the GM has to figure out on the fly. Equally, bear in mind that the more expensive and irreplacable the armour, the more you're likely to get pushback from the players if you threaten to take it away from them.

One other comment on boarding actions specifically. Self-sealing hulls are TL9, whilst Self-sealing tents, etc are TL13. Both require specific money spending on them to get the effect.

I would assume any boarding vacc suit of TL13+ is probably self-sealing (someone with CSC may correct me!) but certainly any damage from gunfire in a boarding action means the vacc suit has been compromised - this may present your travellers with their own unique set of problems!

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I mulled this over last night after hitting the sack.
I’m going to experiment with a rule tonight that I picked up from another game system called “Breaching”
Anytime armor is breached and you take damage, the armor value is dropped by 1. An armor smith can repair the damage after the fight with armor patches. The armor patches will be a fraction of the cost of the original suit. At this early time I don’t have a clear idea of the cost, but there is something similar in CSC… I think for vacc suits…
So if a suit of 12 point combat armor (TL 11?) get’s breach 4 times during combat, it’s new value is 8. An armor smith (mechanic?) needs to use 4 armor patches (of the correct type) to bring it back 12.
If a suit is dropped to half its value during one fight, then it permanently looses 1 point of armor value, so the most it can be is 11. If it is dropped by half in another fight, then it drops to 10 and so on.
If rigid armor is reduced to 0, it completely falls apart and cannot be salvaged. Soft armor can never go below 1. There will always be just enough flexible material to give at least 1 point of protection.
To me this is a good way to buy used armor in a secondary market. Armor with patches, armor that’s been reduced in effectiveness from combat. You will also get nice visuals from grizzled veterans who’s favorite armor is replete with patches and replacement segments.
Any thoughts? Too much thought in the matter? Are the current rules just fine (no damage to body armor)?

 

[jwpacker]

Considering that some of the damage that "gets through" doesn't necessarily breach anything, I think I'd be inclined to say that a breach doesn't occur unless the damage is 150% of the armor value (or some other multiple, your mileage may vary), but otherwise, I can totally get behind that sort of system. It does lend a great deal of color to a fairly bland part of the system, and I love the idea of a secondary market on used armor.

 

[Darzoni]

My players tend to perform maintenance on their gear, armor specifically, for the very reason you outlined. Most Vacc suits above a given TL are of the self-healing type when it comes to small punctures/bullet holes, as mentioned in the core book. I /assume/ that most armor that is fully enclosed like a vacc suit has the same deal, but Your Rulings May Vary.

Simplest solution is to just charge a percentage of the armor's cost for maintenance/repair, probably based on how much punishment it absorbed. Unlike the real world, it would seem that gear in Traveller is built to LAST, so repairing it is much cheaper than replacing it.

As a side note: I don't think vacc suits would be able to handle multiple volleys of fully automatic gauss fire well enough to seal back up afterwards...

 

[locarno24]

Any thoughts? Too much thought in the matter? Are the current rules just fine (no damage to body armor)?

My main problem with the 'drop a point of armour each time' is that it dramatically increases the difference in effectiveness between good and not-so-good armour; against a generic 3d6 handgun Armour 12 combat armour won't take damage from most hits whilst an armour 8 boarding vacc suit will. To make matters worse, after a couple of average shots, the boarding vacc suit is also now only armour 6, meaning you're significantly more likely to punch through it and will do more damage on average when you do.

My main problem with the 'armour breach' idea is that whilst a penetrating gauss slug or laser shot will leave a hole in the armour, are you really a good enough shot to hit that specific point again? If we're talking about flame, or frag, maybe, but given how hard it is to hit a dodging target with a bit of cover and low light, are you seriously considering aiming for bullet holes?

By all means, demand a 'monthly maintenance' on armour, and add successive surcharge if (a) they were in combat, (b) they were hit, (c) they took hits through the armour, and (d) were seriously wounded through the armour, but I really don't think you can make a single sweeping statement about armour damage.

 

[Rusty_Unycorn]

To me this is a good way to buy used armor in a secondary market. Armor with patches, armor that’s been reduced in effectiveness from combat. You will also get nice visuals from grizzled veterans who’s favorite armor is replete with patches and replacement segments.
Any thoughts? Too much thought in the matter? Are the current rules just fine (no damage to body armor)?

I like this idea! As compared to maintenance (Which is an easily ignored background rule), this adds flavor and makes it something that the players will recognize as "Oh. You know, this just might affect me". And yes, it does define the line between good and not-so-good armor, which is rather realistic. And it also offer up the option of buying better versions of the armor, which could resist, oh say, 175% to 200% or more of its rating before it takes damage. (as well as the evil Ref option of "Oh, this armor isn't so good. Made cheap, you understand? But it's only 500 credits less..." :twisted: )
And yes, given enough damage, armor will fall apart. We're not just talking about bullet holes here. We're also talking about fraying, structural damage, armor plates cracking... Stuff like that.

 

[jwpacker]

And yes, given enough damage, armor will fall apart. We're not just talking about bullet holes here. We're also talking about fraying, structural damage, armor plates cracking... Stuff like that.

This, as well as the prior concern about damaging armor being too easy, are why I'd set a threshold higher than just "armor was exceeded" - especially when you start factoring in SAP, AP and all of the advanced armor piercing options...

 

[Rusty_Unycorn]

Yeah, considering those, the damage threshold might need to be higher. But I really don't think so. 150% sounds pretty good to me as a baseline, but your mileage may vary. In a mercenary game, or one where you're really likely to face all the varying sorts of AP ammo, then you might revise it upwards to 200% or so as a baseline. (Or maybe even have the effective Armor value drop not apply to the threshold.)
Mulling back over somethings, I think that the damage threshold should remain the same throughout a fight, unless the armor value gets permanently dropped. Helps simplify the book-keeping. (If you want an argument for it, I don't got one, unless the idea of the armor still retaining enough of its structure to keep the same threshold works for you.)
SO, it might look this as an example:
HEV(12), AV 8, Threshold 12, 18KCr, with the threshold varying up and down for amour quality (+/- 10% cost for every +/- 10% threshold, rounding down on Threshold values and rounding up on cost, with minimums and maximums set by the Ref, my first idea being +/-50%). So, we could buy our HEV (12) suit at 9KCr with a threshold of 8, equal to the armor value. Of course, it sucks. Big time. But, we could do it for 27KCr, with a threshold of 16, and the things is really well built, with no effective increase in weight (always a big concern there).
What do you guys think?

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

All a little too much paper work in these ideas for me, I like to get on with the trading and the adventuring.

I abstract these costs to an annual repair and maintenance cost of 10% of value for kit that gets "arduous" use, including armour, weapons (but not ammo), sights etc, down to a 1% of value for items that don't get taken out much. If not enough cash some item is declared "broken" at the DM's whim..."Oh no, not my gauss rifle" :twisted:

Vacc suit repairs and tool replacements should be covered by the usual ship maintence fees, if applicable.

Egil

 

[nats]

Core Book says Vacc Suits are self sealing and not affected by guns or slashes other than large powerful weapon hits or very large animal teeth bites/claw hits etc!

But I would say any characters should be asked to repair hit armour/vacc suits etc after a combat session possibly by just letting the characters pay for it when they choose to buy more ammo etc. Some damage might not be able to be fixed or cost would be prohibitive (if they were badly hit). If they refused to pay for the work they could have a secret negative DM imposed to receiving future hits or imposed to shots from their damaged guns - especially to fragile guns previously used as cudgels etc!

 

[jwpacker]

This definitely falls in the realm of "Optional Rules" for me as well. I would likely use it, especially that nicely codified batch that Rusty came up with, but many other GMs prefer to just make a mental note that someone took a particularly nasty hit, and point out after the battle that their armor is "damaged" and needs repairs, and if the player opts not to deal with it, assess a penalty at a later date. Much more dramatic and easier to manipulate for plot purposes.

 

[Easterner]

Armour is designed to be modular. When damaged you pop out that plate and put in another. Mail, Lorica Segmentata, kevlar vests. All the same 2000 years ago or now. Only full plate lacks this and that is rare.