Damage of the Sap

Sven

Mongoose
Hi.

Maybe I have just overlooked this, but:

How much damage can a character inflict with a sap.

In D&D the sap usually makes 1D6 damage, but I think it should make a little bit more in Conan.

In the weapon lists there is no sap mentioned. The damage is subdual, but how much?
 

Yogah of Yag

Mongoose
As a "Conan scholar" studying Howard's stories in great detail (vocabular analysis, corpus linguistics), my first concern is "Are saps featured in any authentic Conan story by Robert E. Howard?" If so, then we could devise a rule for saps in the RPG. I would have to do some thorough searches to find this out which may take time. However, IF it is a part of Howard's Hyborian world, I would amp up the damage to 1d8. If you are aware of a REH story in which a sap is mentioned, please let us know. Otherwise, if you have seen it in pastiche, a comic, or some other source, it would still be good to know.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
The sap already does 1d8 if it's your sneak attack weapon of choice as a thief. :)

No...seriously. Choose that as your style weapon, and once you get whatever base damage you decide it should do, if you're dealing 3d8 sneak attack damage, it won't matter. :twisted:

Too bad it isn't in the main book. Did anyone check ROK or something? If it's not in existing ones, it'll be in Hyboria's Fallen for sure. In the mean time, 1d4 or 1d6 seems appropriate, because a club in Conan deals 1d8 base.
 

slaughterj

Mongoose
Yogah of Yag said:
As a "Conan scholar" studying Howard's stories in great detail (vocabular analysis, corpus linguistics), my first concern is "Are saps featured in any authentic Conan story by Robert E. Howard?" If so, then we could devise a rule for saps in the RPG. I would have to do some thorough searches to find this out which may take time. However, IF it is a part of Howard's Hyborian world, I would amp up the damage to 1d8. If you are aware of a REH story in which a sap is mentioned, please let us know. Otherwise, if you have seen it in pastiche, a comic, or some other source, it would still be good to know.

There's no particular complexity in design or for the components of a sap, so I would say it would exist in the Hyborian world, even if only in make-shift form.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Yeah, it's a simple weapon composed of leather and rocks, essentially. D&D 3.5 has it as a "light Martial weapon", but it's much less difficult to use than that. This isn't some sort of ninja attack we're trying to pull off here - it's whacking someone on the head. (lol)

1d8 seems high. 1d4 is the same damage as a Pommel (Martial Light Wpn, Conan AE pg127) and can be used with the Stunning Attack feat (pg119) as though it were an unarmed strike (so provoking an AoO). The first part sounds good as a special effect for a sap, but not the last bit - it's a weapon after all, while attacking with a pommel is really using a makeshift weapon. The rough thing about the Stunning Attack feat is the +8BAB that's required.

My advice: without makiing up a bunch of rules, just use the gauntlet (1d4, x2) or the club (1d8, x2) and apply the rules for attacking with a pommel. Less damage plus the stun capability would be the most reasonable to me (1d4, x2, Pommel rules).
 

Yogah of Yag

Mongoose
slaughterj said:
Yogah of Yag said:
As a "Conan scholar" studying Howard's stories in great detail (vocabular analysis, corpus linguistics), my first concern is "Are saps featured in any authentic Conan story by Robert E. Howard?" If so, then we could devise a rule for saps in the RPG. I would have to do some thorough searches to find this out which may take time. However, IF it is a part of Howard's Hyborian world, I would amp up the damage to 1d8. If you are aware of a REH story in which a sap is mentioned, please let us know. Otherwise, if you have seen it in pastiche, a comic, or some other source, it would still be good to know.

There's no particular complexity in design or for the components of a sap, so I would say it would exist in the Hyborian world, even if only in make-shift form.

That's true, but I'm a relative Howard purist--perhaps not to the extent that Mr. Darlage is, but...

If it's not in Howard I am disinclined to use it in RPG.
 

slaughterj

Mongoose
Yogah of Yag said:
slaughterj said:
Yogah of Yag said:
As a "Conan scholar" studying Howard's stories in great detail (vocabular analysis, corpus linguistics), my first concern is "Are saps featured in any authentic Conan story by Robert E. Howard?" If so, then we could devise a rule for saps in the RPG. I would have to do some thorough searches to find this out which may take time. However, IF it is a part of Howard's Hyborian world, I would amp up the damage to 1d8. If you are aware of a REH story in which a sap is mentioned, please let us know. Otherwise, if you have seen it in pastiche, a comic, or some other source, it would still be good to know.

There's no particular complexity in design or for the components of a sap, so I would say it would exist in the Hyborian world, even if only in make-shift form.

That's true, but I'm a relative Howard purist--perhaps not to the extent that Mr. Darlage is, but...

If it's not in Howard I am disinclined to use it in RPG.

Did Howard include any wheat farmers? Did Howard include any mining techniques such as using structural supports to enable deeper digging? Did Howard include anything on the operation of calendars? You can take that sort of logic way too far, you know.
 

Yogah of Yag

Mongoose
slaughterj said:
Yogah of Yag said:
slaughterj said:
There's no particular complexity in design or for the components of a sap, so I would say it would exist in the Hyborian world, even if only in make-shift form.

That's true, but I'm a relative Howard purist--perhaps not to the extent that Mr. Darlage is, but...

If it's not in Howard I am disinclined to use it in RPG.

Did Howard include any wheat farmers? Did Howard include any mining techniques such as using structural supports to enable deeper digging? Did Howard include anything on the operation of calendars? You can take that sort of logic way too far, you know.

No flaming, if you please. Thank you.
 

slaughterj

Mongoose
Yogah of Yag said:
slaughterj said:
Yogah of Yag said:
That's true, but I'm a relative Howard purist--perhaps not to the extent that Mr. Darlage is, but...

If it's not in Howard I am disinclined to use it in RPG.

Did Howard include any wheat farmers? Did Howard include any mining techniques such as using structural supports to enable deeper digging? Did Howard include anything on the operation of calendars? You can take that sort of logic way too far, you know.

No flaming, if you please. Thank you.

LOL, if you think that was flaming, you live a sheltered life! :lol:
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Oddly enough, even though a sap isn't listed as a possible weapon in the equipment charts, the thief sneak attack rules indicate it as one of the weapons you can opt to inflict sneak subdual damage with instead of lethal.

:shock: :?:
 
Sutek said:
Oddly enough, even though a sap isn't listed as a possible weapon in the equipment charts, the thief sneak attack rules indicate it as one of the weapons you can opt to inflict sneak subdual damage with instead of lethal.

That's more likely someone being lazy with the 'cut and paste' function while writing than a intended rule.....anyone see the Rapier mentioned in Feat section in the equipment list?

And I agree- Howard tends to leave huge hunks out of the world- giving me more room to throw my stuff in....8)
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
I'd say leave the stats as is for the Sap. I think it's more like the dagger in that it shouldn't get the damage increase other weapons get in conan.

Sap cost 1 sp Damage 1d6 Crit x2 AP 0 Weight 2lbs Type Bludgeoning

It deals subdual damage, I'd change it to a simple weapon though, seems to easy of a weapon to use. I'd also allow it to make stunning attacks.

The weapon is way too useful to thieves and slavers for it to be not in the game.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
foxworthy said:
I'd say leave the stats as is for the Sap. I think it's more like the dagger in that it shouldn't get the damage increase other weapons get in conan.

Sap cost 1 sp Damage 1d6 Crit x2 AP 0 Weight 2lbs Type Bludgeoning

It deals subdual damage, I'd change it to a simple weapon though, seems to easy of a weapon to use. I'd also allow it to make stunning attacks.

The weapon is way too useful to thieves and slavers for it to be not in the game.

Not exactly leaving it alone there, are you foxy? (lol)

I agree with your stats though. I'd say that instead of automatically causing Stun, that if the Sap is chosen on a sneak attack to deal subdual rather than lethal damage, the threat is automatically activated, meaning the attacker need only roll to see if he crits. This will increase the odds of lots of damage on the sneak attack, and more often knocking targets unconcious, which is what Saps are for.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Sutek said:
foxworthy said:
I'd say leave the stats as is for the Sap. I think it's more like the dagger in that it shouldn't get the damage increase other weapons get in conan.

Sap cost 1 sp Damage 1d6 Crit x2 AP 0 Weight 2lbs Type Bludgeoning

It deals subdual damage, I'd change it to a simple weapon though, seems to easy of a weapon to use. I'd also allow it to make stunning attacks.

The weapon is way too useful to thieves and slavers for it to be not in the game.

Not exactly leaving it alone there, are you foxy? (lol)

I agree with your stats though. I'd say that instead of automatically causing Stun, that if the Sap is chosen on a sneak attack to deal subdual rather than lethal damage, the threat is automatically activated, meaning the attacker need only roll to see if he crits. This will increase the odds of lots of damage on the sneak attack, and more often knocking targets unconcious, which is what Saps are for.

Not exactly leaving what alone? I didn't change the stts to it, all I changed was suggesting it be simple rather then martial. plus I made the price silver instead of gold.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
:roll:

Those are changes...so is causing stunning attacks.

That's all I meant, dude. Relax. :wink:
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Sutek said:
:roll:

Those are changes...so is causing stunning attacks.

That's all I meant, dude. Relax. :wink:

I am relaxed, when I said no changes to the stats I meant damage die, damage being subdual and crit, weight and type, the other things are more special features to me.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Ah, I see...I simply wasnt' clear on what you thought of as special features.

:roll:

Whatever dude.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Sutek said:
Ah, I see...I simply wasnt' clear on what you thought of as special features.

:roll:

Whatever dude.

I don't know what the hint of hostility is for, but the eye roll and the whateve lead me to think there is a hint of it from you.

I just wasn't sure what you meant by "not exactly leaving it alone" and wanted to know what you meant. When you clarified I responded with why I mistook what you said. I've had no hostile intent, but it seems with the eye rolls that you may, so if your misunderstanding the intnet of my post, I apologize. I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm just trying to clarify.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Raven Blackwell said:
Dude it's Sutek- I had to challenge him to mortal combat to get him to play nice. 8)

Yeah, I'd do that too, but my doctor told me that mortal combat could be dangerous to my health. So I try to refrian from it these days. :D
 
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