Cults Deux

[gamesmeister]

The problem with Tricksters is they have no concept of consequences, and should be played as such.

Therefore playing a trickster one week might result in the trickster or another PC ending up face down in a cow turd. The following week might result in the entire party facing down a horde of berserk Zorak Zorani Death Lords because the trickster showed his arse to their mother.

Generally Tricksters are too destructive to make good PCs IMO, although they can be fun to use occasionally.

 

[homerjsinnott]

So they magically have no sense of consequence? thats what people seem to be saying?
These characters aren't gods...

And thieves are acceptable in any society?

Perhaps you mainly hear about the tricksters tricks that failed cause that's when he gets found out. and when he suceeds others get blamed.

And if we are talking about Myth perhaps people could tell me the myths about Theives Gods co-operating with large groups of other gods?

And let's not bring that jack of all trades and master of all trades, all singing all dancing Orlanth into this :roll: :roll:

I feel that if people can accept someone who worships a god of thieves into a party they should be able to accept a trickster.


And most trickster gods are theives. Most real mythologies don't have thief Gods, they have gods who steal.

 

[Voriof]

As an aside, I would note that thieves, at least, can function in groups. Groups of thieves, for example. They're called such things as crime rings, or gangs, or thief guilds.

You wanted an answer as to why I don't like them. You do not like that. That's fine. I've given you Greg's explanation of how Tricksters work (or don't work) in Glorantha. You do not like that either. That's fine too.

YGMV.

Jeff

 

[gamesmeister]

So they magically have no sense of consequence? thats what people seem to be saying?
These characters aren't gods...

And thieves are acceptable in any society?

Perhaps you mainly hear about the tricksters tricks that failed cause that's when he gets found out. and when he suceeds others get blamed.

And if we are talking about Myth perhaps people could tell me the myths about Theives Gods co-operating with large groups of other gods?

And let's not bring that jack of all trades and master of all trades, all singing all dancing Orlanth into this :roll: :roll:

I feel that if people can accept someone who worships a god of thieves into a party they should be able to accept a trickster.


And most trickster gods are theives. Most real mythologies don't have thief Gods, they have gods who steal.

This is not a theological or even ethical issue. It's simply that if you play a Trickster as they are meant to be played, it's usually detrimental to the health of the rest of the party.

That may or may not be true of thieves, although I'd suggest that even thieves wouldn't bite the hand that feeds them - if they're getting rich on adventurer pickings, why would they jeopardise that by stealing from other PCs? Sure, they're bound to do it occasionally, that's just understandable...

 

[homerjsinnott]

You wanted an answer as to why I don't like them. You do not like that. That's fine. I've given you Greg's explanation of how Tricksters work (or don't work) in Glorantha. You do not like that either. That's fine too.

YGMV.

Jeff

Ummm, I never said I liked annoying tricksters (is this the Gloranthan way?) , I was just suggesting that there are other ways at looking at myth than Cambell/Stafford. Other people have written about myth other than in a structuralist way and have a different way of looking at the trickster. I am sorry if I have annoyed you.

I feel that suggesting that a proffession that lives by causing harm to others (thieves) has soom kind of code of honour ie 'not biting the hand that feeds' seems a bit weird (although more heroic), a more accurate trueism seems to be (from my experience) 'no honour among thieves'

 

[gamesmeister]

Both of those apply - however, not biting the hand that feeds has nothing to do with honour and far more to do with selfishness

 

[weasel_fierce]

The best bet is to look at the role Loki plays in Norse myth

 

[Banned Beetle]

The Trickster cult has a lot of different aspects. It seems strange all his aspects should end up facedown in cow turd as you put it, as they are very different. Say, a follower of the Imp aspect and a follower of the Seducer aspect is likely to act differently.

Trif.

 

[Exubae]

Most PC groups tend to be Grave robbers and Thieves to a certain extent :lol:

Think folk may be seeing Trickster/Thieves through D&D tainted spectacles:

Most descriptions of Trickster, seem to depict him as a raving head case to at best severe autism (Do not recognise others as individuals).
Old Trickster is an outcast, who in their right mind is going to want a possible sociopath (he has aspects as a murderer) in their village or party.
When something goes amiss everyone blames the trickster - hence he is usually an out cast.
Ok Trickster gets up to all sorts of Tricks and slapstick but he has no understanding of the consequences - which is a big problem to model in a game system... yes some work as he expects but alot can go horribly wrong.

Thieves aren't the black and white D&D equivalent, they operate in society, have friends, and can operate in groups (though they don't shout about the fact they rob folk for a living).

 

[Exubae]

Voriof - Your take on Shamanism is quite pretty cool, I particularly like what you've done to Pamalt. Its got me thinking about setting a game on the southern continent, though other than Tales of the Reaching Moon details on the Southern continent is a bit light (nothing has really been offically published..yet).

Quick question on Hunters, can the Divine worshippers of a huner cult use Charms etc of a Shamanic practise?

Just out of interest what happened to the arrow rune, think it was called the Power Rune that Pamalt possessed in RQ3.

 

[homerjsinnott]

One of the ways of looking at trickster is that he teaches us things about ourselves and our world, we may not like what he teaches and it may not be be pleasant but they are valid lessions. Tricksters teach us to look at our world in a different way.
Examples of tricksters (aspects) may include: Buddha, Bacchus, Coyote, Loki, Lenny Bruce, Mordred, Prometheus, Ted Huge's Crow, Hermes, Anansi, Andy Warhol, Judas and the jester Kyoami in Ran.
I feel that saying trickster is one thing is to miss the whole point of trickster. To me the 'job' of trickster is taking reality (societies norms) and giving it a twist, not breaking it as chaos would, but twisting it.

 

[Voriof]

Voriof - Your take on Shamanism is quite pretty cool, I particularly like what you've done to Pamalt. Its got me thinking about setting a game on the southern continent, though other than Tales of the Reaching Moon details on the Southern continent is a bit light (nothing has really been offically published..yet).

Glad you liked it. I drew heavily on HeroQuest for inspiriation and style - I try to write rules to reflect the game world rather than bend the game world to conform to the rules.

Quick question on Hunters, can the Divine worshippers of a huner cult use Charms etc of a Shamanic practise?

I suspect you can use the charms if the cults are associated. FOr example, Orlanthi should be able to use the charms provided by the Kolat practice. I will clarify this in the errata - once it gets done.

Just out of interest what happened to the arrow rune, think it was called the Power Rune that Pamalt possessed in RQ3.

Pamalt's Rune? Dunno. Seems to have disappeared. I'd sent in a few runes such as Shargash's Force rune but these seem to have been cut for space. I admit Pamalt's "Right Path" rune had escaped my recollection. Fortunately, someone put the Trade rune into the core rules after I saw them and our Trade cults should be able to use it.

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

.
Examples of tricksters (aspects) may include: Buddha, Bacchus, Coyote, Loki, Lenny Bruce, Mordred, Prometheus, Ted Huge's Crow, Hermes, Anansi, Andy Warhol, Judas and the jester Kyoami in Ran.
I feel that saying trickster is one thing is to miss the whole point of trickster. To me the 'job' of trickster is taking reality (societies norms) and giving it a twist, not breaking it as chaos would, but twisting it.

And how many players play Trickster in such a fashion? Damned few. Which is why I generally frown upon seeing them in games. 90% of the time, Its someone who's just there to screw up the game for everyone or play a Chaotic Stupid/Chaotic Silly character. Which, I think, was my original point before you jumped on me with boots.

Jeff

 

[Banned Beetle]

.
Examples of tricksters (aspects) may include: Buddha, Bacchus, Coyote, Loki, Lenny Bruce, Mordred, Prometheus, Ted Huge's Crow, Hermes, Anansi, Andy Warhol, Judas and the jester Kyoami in Ran.
I feel that saying trickster is one thing is to miss the whole point of trickster. To me the 'job' of trickster is taking reality (societies norms) and giving it a twist, not breaking it as chaos would, but twisting it.

And how many players play Trickster in such a fashion? Damned few. Which is why I generally frown upon seeing them in games. 90% of the time, Its someone who's just there to screw up the game for everyone or play a Chaotic Stupid/Chaotic Silly character. Which, I think, was my original point before you jumped on me with boots.

Jeff

Could that be GM specific? It's not like it's very hard to kill a character which is running around and provoking people?

Trif.

 

[Voriof]

And how many players play Trickster in such a fashion? Damned few. Which is why I generally frown upon seeing them in games. 90% of the time, Its someone who's just there to screw up the game for everyone or play a Chaotic Stupid/Chaotic Silly character. Which, I think, was my original point before you jumped on me with boots.

Jeff

Could that be GM specific? It's not like it's very hard to kill a character which is running around and provoking people?

Trif.

Not in my experience. Its pretty much endemic to the player type. There are numerous threads on trickster-type behavior on RPG.net that might be enlightening reading for you.

I suspect the problem is not with the GM. :roll: The type of player who is often drawn to playing Trickster charcters is the kind of player who seems to get off on screwing with the other players or just screwing up the game world 'just because'.


Jeff

 

[gamesmeister]

The Trickster cult has a lot of different aspects. It seems strange all his aspects should end up facedown in cow turd as you put it, as they are very different. Say, a follower of the Imp aspect and a follower of the Seducer aspect is likely to act differently.

Trif.

Exactly where did I say all his aspects would do that? :roll:

I was giving an example, nothing more.

 

[Banned Beetle]

And how many players play Trickster in such a fashion? Damned few. Which is why I generally frown upon seeing them in games. 90% of the time, Its someone who's just there to screw up the game for everyone or play a Chaotic Stupid/Chaotic Silly character. Which, I think, was my original point before you jumped on me with boots.

Jeff

Could that be GM specific? It's not like it's very hard to kill a character which is running around and provoking people?

Trif.

Not in my experience. Its pretty much endemic to the player type. There are numerous threads on trickster-type behavior on RPG.net that might be enlightening reading for you.

I suspect the problem is not with the GM. :roll: The type of player who is often drawn to playing Trickster charcters is the kind of player who seems to get off on screwing with the other players or just screwing up the game world 'just because'.


Jeff

Dead characters can't screw around...

Trif.

 

[Banned Beetle]

The Trickster cult has a lot of different aspects. It seems strange all his aspects should end up facedown in cow turd as you put it, as they are very different. Say, a follower of the Imp aspect and a follower of the Seducer aspect is likely to act differently.

Trif.

Exactly where did I say all his aspects would do that? :roll:

I was giving an example, nothing more.

While you did not mention his aspects at all, I did get the impression you felt all Trickster characters would end up doing the same things.

Trif.

 

[ninthcouncil]

While you did not mention his aspects at all, I did get the impression you felt all Trickster characters would end up doing the same things.

I think the point that's being made is more that the sort of players who are often attracted to playing Trickster-type characters will generally end up doing the same sort of things. For which read - attention seeking halfwits who want to stroke their fragile yet bloated egos by dominating the game but are too lazy and incompetent to actually referee anything.

And that this is more of a problem for gaming groups than, say, the fact that the sort of players who tend to be attracted to playing "thieves" will always end up doing much the same sort of things, given that so much RPG activity tends to involve swiping things off other people anyway.

Of course, in the intersection between those two groups - the people who like their characters to steal stuff and mess around the rest of the party - lies a whole level of gaming hell...

 

[Voriof]

I think the point that's being made is more that the sort of players who are often attracted to playing Trickster-type characters will generally end up doing the same sort of things. For which read - attention seeking halfwits who want to stroke their fragile yet bloated egos by dominating the game but are too lazy and incompetent to actually referee anything.

Precisely! Thank you! I was starting to wonder.

Jeff