Creating a Temptress character

[Apple]

IIRC, a Temptress with Thievery as Secret Art gets a special ability that enables her to Feint as a Free Action once per round - for instance by flashing certain parts of her body.

I'd forgotten about that one, but it's only once per combat, so it's only good for a single attack. Although with sneak attack, thats often all you need.

A Soldier/Temptress with a Shield, well that would be a good fit for an Amazon. But I don't think that's the direction the player wants to go.

If she's spending all her time in combat and looking at improving her combat effectiveness then a level of soldier is a good option. *shrug* I don't know what that has to do with amazons. 2-weapon-fighting is a free attack every round, alternately shield proficiency is a life saver at lower levels.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Once per combat? Gee, thanks for the heads-up. I guess I missed that. But the rule makes sense.

We'll wait and see how it turns out and the characters develop. Concerning shields, I have to say that in all previous Conan games, all or most of the players shunned shields (as being uncool and cowardly) and there was in fact some peer pressure that led to nobody ever using a shield (or bardiches for that matter). It'll be interesting to see if the same happens again this time, with all different players.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Here's a little update for those interested in how our Temptress character is keeping.

Short answer: so-so.

Longer answer: of course the character has certain strengths, but it gets repetitive after a while. But more importantly, the Temptress is in fact pretty much useless in combat. Ranged attacks do rather piddly damage (d8+1 minus DR --> a value around zero most of the time). In melee she could use Feint for one decent Sneak Attack per round, but not wearing any armour herself makes that generally too risky.

In the latest session she actually got the worst of both worlds - she did stay behind the lines trying just to inspire the fighters, and got shot at by a crossbowman. He scores a Crit and rolls exactly 20 for damage, which of course is not reduced by any armour.
Now the Temptress player was lucky that just yesterday we were trying out a new damage system (see "New approach to weapon damage" thread) which works without Massive Damage. But if she had to roll a Save, her piddly +3 Fortitude wouldn't have helped a lot. She would have had to spend a Fate Point to be Left for Dead.

Now the player is mildly frustrated with her character. Not getting involved into combat when everyone else is hacking away is quite boring already, but almost getting killed nevertheless is less than satisfying.

So now we're thinking about how to continue. She might just start taking Pirate levels from now on, to get Light Armour and Two-Weapon Combat. We're alo thinking about letting her re-level, i.e. swap out some Temptress levels for something more battleworthy. But whatever it's going to be, the character won't be a pure Temptress by the end of next session. Actually, the player is even considering making a whole new character.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Disappointing to hear she is not having fun with the character. So do you guys feel the Temptress as a class is under powered then? Just curious.

 

[Ichabod]

Side note (that's what you always start out with, right?), but getting one shotted is the nature of the game, so I don't see the issue with the crossbow bolt.

Her character seems to have much the same problem that a scholar has or a thief against numerous attackers or badly designed characters. Or, characters in lots of systems where combat build and noncombat builds live in two different worlds of play.

First, she shouldn't need to avoid combat. Combat Expertise and fighting defensively will jack up DVs to where she shouldn't be hit much, especially when there's little reason to attack her since she isn't being effective. I have a character with over 120 hit points who doesn't get attacked much because he doesn't kill stuff, i.e. not a threat.

Offensively, it isn't about damage output for noncombat builds but about aiding another, closing holes in lines, creating flanks, meat shielding, preventing AoOs, preventing flanks, whatever. With a bow, use distracting arrow until the ammunition runs out.

Our group is hopeless about tactics, so we don't use these. But, we should. If you consider aiding another as an attack (it seems to not be, unlike distracting arrow), then you should have "I CE for 5, fight defensive, aid killing machine's attack from this Tumbled to flanking position."

If there's still a problem, then the party is badly designed for the game the GM is running or the GM should run things differently. It's never a good idea to have PCs who are only useful some of the time. This shouldn't be an issue in Conan since there are a variety of subtle combat tactics to help other party members shred enemies, but players may do it to themselves out of being stupid (we see this all of the time).

 

[Clovenhoof]

Disappointing to hear she is not having fun with the character. So do you guys feel the Temptress as a class is under powered then? Just curious.

Well, she is having fun with her some of the time, but it does happen rather often that she simply has to stay behind and let the men do the work (and have the fun); not only in combat but also when certain skills are called for - like Climb or Move Silently - that she simply doesn't have.

Right now I am inclined to agree with an opinion voiced previously in this or another Temptress thread, namely that it's mostly an NPC class and not very suitable for Player Characters after all.

Side note (that's what you always start out with, right?), but getting one shotted is the nature of the game, so I don't see the issue with the crossbow bolt.

The moment of frustration wasn't caused by theoretically being one-shotted (again, she didn't have to roll MDS because the rule was "disabled" for the session due to the experimental houserule), but by this happening despite _not engaging in combat at all_. She obviously didn't pose a threat to anyone, but the DM randomly rolled who the crossbowmen would be aiming for. Of 6 bolts, 3 went for the pirate (who dodged most of them), 2 for the barb (who soaked) and 1 for the temptress, who got critted. So yes, it was a lot of bad luck, but this kind of thing kind of acts as a catalyst as it shows you where your place in life (or: in combat) is.

First, she shouldn't need to avoid combat. Combat Expertise and fighting defensively will jack up DVs to where she shouldn't be hit much,

That may be worth looking into. I've suggested her to use CE several times but she says then she wouldn't hit anymore. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that with a successful Feint she would have a ~50% chance to bypass armour and Sneak Attack a typical opponent.

Offensively, it isn't about damage output for noncombat builds but about aiding another, closing holes in lines, creating flanks, meat shielding, preventing AoOs, preventing flanks, whatever.

Of course a Temptress would be a particularly bad candidate for a meat shield. The other two PCs are Barb and Pirate so these don't have to worry about getting flanked and are very mobile, and our main concern is to keep our opponents from attacking the Temptress.

The current idea would be to multiclass her into Pirate to get her TWC, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Mobility plus the ability to wear at least light armour. Doing so would of course negate several Temptress features which require her to wear a shroud of nothing.

Our group is hopeless about tactics, so we don't use these. But, we should.

Ours isn't so bad in this respect. We sometimes take risks by moving into the middle of many mobs in order to set up flanking positions, and generally I pick my targets so as not to "killsteal" any mobs that the pirate can Whirlwind Attack on his action. We also try to always end up threatening some enemies at the end of our actions to make it more difficult for enemy archers/crossbows to fire at us (since they'd have to "shoot into a melee").

But as I said, right now it's basically the Pirate and my Barb sharing kills between them, while the Temptress is busy with keeping herself from getting killed.

One problem is that sometimes the opposition is acting too dumb or random and sometimes way too smart. Sometimes they all rush in on one PC (usually my Barb, which usually works for me because he can take a lot of punishment and keep going), sometimes they spread their attacks out in a rather stupid way, and sometimes they take advantage of the GMs meta knowledge that the actual NPCs could not possible have themselves.

If there's still a problem, then the party is badly designed for the game the GM is running or the GM should run things differently.

These days we're having a bit of trouble in that direction because the GM is bent on "improving" the rules and introduces some rather strange houserules, some of which we as players downright protest, but we're trying to find workable solutions with him.

 

[Ichabod]

Everybody should be sucking up damage to spread it around. What's terrible in this system is having one character take much more damage unless the character was combat useless to begin with. Either way, it's good for the party if she takes up space in combat ... assuming she isn't so completely outclassed in DVs, which seems to be the case. But, that's fixable.

It seems like Dex is the only combat attribute she may have at a decent level. If it's average (like around 14 or so), then the problem may stem from how she assigned attributes. One assumes when you play a game called Conan that combat will occasionally occur, so one should have a good stat in at least one combat attribute (we will generously call Con a combat attribute for these purposes).

In terms of the class being playable: All of those skill ranks must be going into something. I'm not clear on why she wouldn't have general skills like Move Silently or Climb off of Int. What it sounds like is that any character not specifically designed for combat is a liability. What would be different about playing a scholar or even a thief?

Given a choice between noble and temptress as a PC, I'd always choose temptress - better specials (most of the few that the noble get are useless), vastly better saves, double skill ranks. Thief is the closest comp; I'd rather a thief myself as I find some of the temptress stuff silly. Still, better saves, comparable dodge, random sorcery. Scholar is a complicated comp, but what we find is that scholars shouldn't fight, they should figure out the weaknesses of the demon gods that the rest of the party kill.

If the campaign screws noncombat characters, then no one should play a noncombat character. Leave that to NPCs. I'd easily take temptress over noble or soldier in any game I'd want to play, over borderer and nomad as well since those two classes are strictly inferior to barbarian, so I don't see the point of ragging on the effectiveness of the class unless you believe like I do that there are only three PC classes in the game. Now, the class is silly in that I don't see why it wouldn't just be an intrigue thief, noble/thief, or scholar/thief build.

As to taking levels in pirate, why? One die of SA over barbarian? I'd still rather take barbarian for the combat crap that she shouldn't need or thief to maintain her edge outside of combat (plus giving way more SA).

 

[Hervé]

Now, the class is silly in that I don't see why it wouldn't just be an intrigue thief, noble/thief, or scholar/thief build.

Well; I didn't think of it before, but you might be true about this...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Everybody should be sucking up damage to spread it around. What's terrible in this system is having one character take much more damage unless the character was combat useless to begin with.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Please clarify.

Either way, it's good for the party if she takes up space in combat ... assuming she isn't so completely outclassed in DVs, which seems to be the case. But, that's fixable.

Well, you know how it is with DVs in Conan. Her DV actually is a bit higher than that of my Barbarian (19 vs 18). But that still means that any mook four levels lower than us hits about 50% of the time, and she doesn't have any armour. (Could you imagine a Temptress in a thick padded Quilted Jerkin? Not sexy.)

It seems like Dex is the only combat attribute she may have at a decent level.

She has Str 13, Dex 16, Con 13 at level 8. Her DD is 10 + 4 (class) + 3 (Dex) + 1 (Light Footed) + 1 (Dodge) = 19. Wih CE she could pump that to 24, which would reduce her Finesse bonus to +5.

In terms of the class being playable: All of those skill ranks must be going into something. I'm not clear on why she wouldn't have general skills like Move Silently or Climb off of Int.

I'm not sure either, will have to check on that. The player has a habit of maxing out a few key skills while totally neglectiing others. Her social checks are through the roof ("Damn, I rolled a 1 on my Diplomacy check... so I have an 18."), but I don't know off hand what she did with her Int points. Some reskilling may be in order.

What would be different about playing a scholar or even a thief?

Of course either would equally stink at combat. Note btw that we decided not to have a Scholar in the party; we want to keep our party magic-free. (Three of us also play in a D&D group and we're all rather fed up with magic.)

Of course it's by and large a characteristic of the player that she doesn't like to be useless over parts of each session. Some players don't mind having an out-time now and then, and others do. I'm on recess every time it gets to scheming and manipulating NPCs because my Barb is completely useless there, and I don't mind. (Exception: last session the other players were about to totally screw up a scheme scene until I ultimately couldn't bear it anymore and took the reigns. I'll rather be out of character for a minute than dead for my whole life. But I digress.)

As to taking levels in pirate, why? One die of SA over barbarian?

Lol, we can't quite imagine her slender and gracious frame taking Barbarian levels... although... hmmmm. On a more mechanical standpoint, Pirate counts as a Favoured Class for her while Barbarian does not, so there's an extra feat for the taking.
Thief has its merits, but still doesn't get any of the TWC, Uncanny Dodge and Mobility benefits. so it's all a bit tricky.

 

[Ichabod]

Everybody should be sucking up damage to spread it around. What's terrible in this system is having one character take much more damage unless the character was combat useless to begin with.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Please clarify.

The party gets hit six times in a combat. It's far better to have those six hits go 2/2/2 then to go 3/3/0. This is because of how healing works in the game.

In comparison, in a game like D&D where you can concentrate healing (through spells), may be far better off with a 3/3/0 as some classes are meant to be hit point reserves and healing is often more efficient when you can't fully heal someone.

So, every combat in which the temptress doesn't take any hits and the other characters take multiple hits that can't be healed with a single short term care is combat inefficient.

 

[Saeros]

It seems to me the issue isn't with the Temptress class or the player of the character but with the encounters. Even if the GM is running published adventures, he/she should be modifiying the encounters so that everyone can participate some how.

Maybe the bad guys have their own Temptress, and the two can square off on the sid. Maybe the Temptress can sneak around the combat to accomplish something that influences the outcome of the combat, like closing the gate to prevent more mooks from entering. Maybe some mook decides he'd rather ravage the Temptress, and puts his weapons away to grapple her. Etc, etc...

It's the GM's job to make the game fun for everyone, and that often means changing the encounter to match the players. That doesn't mean eliminating combats, just tayloring them for the party.

 

[Krushnak]

she should really look at the submissive feats from Hyboria's Fallen. Then she can run through the combat untouched into the arms of the enemy leader all teary eyed and pouty lipped, and carve his heart out when no is looking.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@Ichabod: ah okay, now I see your point. But you also need to take into account that combat classes a) take less damage per hit (due to armour) and b) heal (slightly) faster than noncombat classes (due to Con).
Also, in our group the Temptress is our healer and we play with the "First Aid" houserule that a DC15 Heal check restores a number of HP equal to the Heal modifier. I'm not sure if she can heal herself.

All in all, I think the optimal raw damage spread would be at least 2:2:1, not counting the fact that the Barb has almost twice has many HP as the Temptress.

@Saeros: I agree about the tailored encounters (our GM writes the adventures himself btw and usually brings several pages of fresh printout every session). That said, you can pull off each of those tricks only once, because they are old after that.

I've now talked to her about using CE and Feint more heavily, and she's pouting a bit about having to "keep spamming the same attack". What I'm more concerned about is that multiple attackers might be pretty deadly for her.

 

[Saeros]

I agree that the same old tricks start to get boring. In the end (and I know there are many variations but...), don't most of the adventures boil down to "Kill X; Take X's stuff" ?

It's up to the GM to keep it all interesting with variations and combinations.

I'll second the idea of looking at the feats from H. Fallen.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Have to agree about the submissive feat and I would look at others along those lines as well. Also yeah it sounds like she might need to tweak her skills. It sounds like she might have over specialized in social skills and neglected some other key skills she should at least be decent at.

 

[Ichabod]

What character's attacks are more interesting?

Certainly not "Power Attack -4, Reckless Attack +8 ... Cleave ... Great Cleave ... oops, missed ... second attack ... Great Cleave ..."

The number of decisions should be the same. One character is deciding on how much PA. She's deciding how much CE and whether to fight defensively. One character is trying to get into the middle of a group to clear out as many enemies as possible, she's trying to get to the edge. One character just tries to kill stuff with every attack, she decides whether to SA something to death or aid another.

Actually, if you slow combat down in Conan and go through every decision on combat maneuvers, positioning, expected positioning of every other party member, how much of some feat to use, etc., then there are tons of subtle decisions to make. But, I don't find that people do the tactical calculations in their heads, they just move up and start swinging.

Combat variance is more about what you are fighting then anything else.

True Submissive, which seemed to have gotten forgotten as it was talked about before, is good, but you can't take move actions, which is rather important.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Actually, if you slow combat down in Conan and go through every decision on combat maneuvers, positioning, expected positioning of every other party member, how much of some feat to use, etc., then there are tons of subtle decisions to make. But, I don't find that people do the tactical calculations in their heads, they just move up and start swinging.

I think it's a matter of actual training to make those decisions in an optimal way. If you want fast-paced, ideally immersive combat scenes, the currently acting player shouldn't start musing about how many attack points he should trade for damage or defense now etc. The player needs to either get an intuitive feel for the right dosage, or actually drill the numbers until it gets automatic, like rifle drill in the army.
For instance, the first step for a char with Power Attack is to know how much PA he should use when his opponent is flat-footed, when he is charging, flanking, or whatever else affects his hit chances. Then you can adjust those numbers for opponents with Defense 15, 20, 25, whatever you get in your game.

More tomorrow, now it's time to sign off.

 

[Spade]

Random Bored Lurker Interjection.

Sounds like part of the problem is a newer GM. Rolling dice to determine whether to hit a fearsome Barbarian or a scantily clad prize doesn't make much sense. Either they've identified her as an enemy, in which case the player was using bad tactics in exposing herself, or the GM was running the crossbowmen haphazardly.

The Submissive feats seem okay, but the Temptress has already bought in heavily for social manipulation. Those skills don't vanish in combat, especially if she keeps the dagger hidden.

If the game becomes a no-holds-barred wargame when the battlemat hits the table, the Temptress class is probably not a good fit for the campaign. There's not enough room for creativity short of big bars of iron.

Maybe I'm hazy on the rules (been a couple months), but shouldn't Total Defense also be in the conversation?

- Spade

 

[Clovenhoof]

Either they've identified her as an enemy, in which case the player was using bad tactics in exposing herself, or the GM was running the crossbowmen haphazardly.

I guess you could say the latter was the case. The player held her character back, but the GM rolled randomly to determine which crossbowman targeted which character. However, in this case the three PCs had just stormed onto a ship (lying in the harbour), but the guards probably shouldn't have identified the Temptress as a threat, especially as she hadn't done anything so far.

Maybe I'm hazy on the rules (been a couple months), but shouldn't Total Defense also be in the conversation?

TD is a possibility, but then again, this condemns the character (and thus the player) to doing nothing throughout the fight, which is extraordinarily boring.

 

[Spade]

TD is a possibility, but then again, this condemns the character (and thus the player) to doing nothing throughout the fight, which is extraordinarily boring.

As I recall, TD still allows one move action at a time until she's in a position to be "captured" by the leader of the enemy forces.

Most temptress archetypes have their dramatic successes after a period of patience, it's why they are forever snarling at Conan once they think he's in their power.

I agree, pure Temptress is perhaps not the best PC build. It's probably a fun solo character though.