Confusion over Charging

[Rurik]

How exactly a charge works has created a lot of questions. I've been over the rules and think I've got a handle on charging, but want to throw this out there as this is a part of the rules that could use clarification. An example would be good.

Page 84 describes the Charge CA as: If enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack. If successful, damage may be increased.

However, no minimum distance is ever specified, so "If enough space" is undefined. I am leaning towards a charge needing to be more than the base Move for a creature. So a human would have to move more than 8 meters and up to their sprint distance to enact a charge.

On page 89:

Evading the charge permits the recipient to make an Opposed
Test of his Evade skill verses the charging opponent’s Ride or
Athletics skill (as required). If the recipient wins he throws
himself completely clear of the charging opponent (and
the mount if they are riding one).

Does the recipient get a CM if he gets a greater level of success (can he trip the charger?). I'm mixed on this. I can see it against a human, not a horse. I'm leaning towards 'No', but it is a valid question.

Also on Page 89:

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly
stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action
for the Attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the
Defender during that round, because the speed of the charging
creature carries it clear of the engagement zone.

If the charger does stop dead do they get to use more than one combat action?

I see a charge as a sprint combined with an attack. Therefore it would have to be the first CA (and only) CA taken as an action. One could not Attack, parry, and then decide to charge in a round. The charge would have to be at the First SR for the character. I would allow their other CA's for reactions. Or is it true they could charge at their full sprint, choose to stop at the target, and take their additional CA's?

I assume the single CA for the defender mentioned in the rule is the CA for the Evade or Counter attempt. What if the defender had a higher initiative than the charger and already acted - is he still allowed to defend? I would hope so.

I must say the charging rules have created some confusion.

 

[dbhoward]

How exactly a charge works has created a lot of questions. I've been over the rules and think I've got a handle on charging, but want to throw this out there as this is a part of the rules that could use clarification. An example would be good.

Page 84 describes the Charge CA as: If enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack. If successful, damage may be increased.

However, no minimum distance is ever specified, so "If enough space" is undefined. I am leaning towards a charge needing to be more than the base Move for a creature. So a human would have to move more than 8 meters and up to their sprint distance to enact a charge.

I believe somewhere Loz said the "minimum distance" was left undefined on purpose, so as to prevent MRQ becoming a D&D type miniatures game.

On page 89:

Evading the charge permits the recipient to make an Opposed
Test of his Evade skill verses the charging opponent’s Ride or
Athletics skill (as required). If the recipient wins he throws
himself completely clear of the charging opponent (and
the mount if they are riding one).

Does the recipient get a CM if he gets a greater level of success (can he trip the charger?). I'm mixed on this. I can see it against a human, not a horse. I'm leaning towards 'No', but it is a valid question.

I agree with your judgement: no CM. The same section says "Using Evade prevents the recipient from making a counterattack" which I take to mean the Evade can be your only response to the charge, period.

Also on Page 89:

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly
stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action
for the Attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the
Defender during that round, because the speed of the charging
creature carries it clear of the engagement zone.

If the charger does stop dead do they get to use more than one combat

I take the spirit of this section to mean that unless you stop dead you are charging past, like a flyby attack. So yes, you can use your normal CAs if you don't charge *past* making an attack on the gallop. Flyby attack = 1 CA only.

I see a charge as a sprint combined with an attack. Therefore it would have to be the first CA (and only) CA taken as an action. One could not Attack, parry, and then decide to charge in a round. The charge would have to be at the First SR for the character. I would allow their other CA's for reactions. Or is it true they could charge at their full sprint, choose to stop at the target, and take their additional CA's?

The way I read the rules, Charge is a Combat Action like any other. Nothing says it has to be your first action in a round. So if you have the CAs, why not Attack one foe, then Charge a second? Charge is Move+Attack in a single CA.

I assume the single CA for the defender mentioned in the rule is the CA for the Evade or Counter attempt. What if the defender had a higher initiative than the charger and already acted - is he still allowed to defend? I would hope so.

I would think yes.

I must say the charging rules have created some confusion.

Complete agreement! But it may have been intentional, as they did not want to have a combat section resembling that of D&D 3.5.

 

[Rurik]

I believe somewhere Loz said the "minimum distance" was left undefined on purpose, so as to prevent MRQ becoming a D&D type miniatures game.

Bringing up that there is a minumum distance however is going to naturally lead to the question "what is it?" though.

The way I read the rules, Charge is a Combat Action like any other. Nothing says it has to be your first action in a round. So if you have the CAs, why not Attack one foe, then Charge a second? Charge is Move+Attack in a single CA.

Well a Sprint takes the entire round and can be the only action taken. So in practice on your first SR you would sprint up to 40 meters (unarmored human) and be done for the round.

Normally a move cannot be combined with an attack. But in the case of a charge it can. I have a hard time seeing someone attacking/parrying three times in a round, then sprinting 40meters and combining it with another attack all in a 5 second round. I believe that was may have been why the wording in there about the charge being the only Action allowed, but the unless stopped dead part of the rule seemed odd to me.

I must say the charging rules have created some confusion.

Complete agreement! But it may have been intentional, as they did not want to have a combat section resembling that of D&D 3.5.

Well I hope the creating confusion wasn't intentional.

I understand the desire to keep the rules as light as possible, but believe me when I say that the charge rules created some havoc at first use.

My charge rules as a result of the in game questions follows (and I just realized I never uploaded them to the Rules section of the game site - thanks for bringing this back up :wink: ):

Charging:

A charge combines a sprint with an attack. Since Sprinting takes an entire round it is the only action a player may take in a round. You cannot attack and then decide to charge with a later CA.

You must be able to move more than your normal Move rate (8m for a human) and can move up to the maximum sprint distance (40m minus Armor Penalty for humans).

Once declared a target of a charge a character can take no further actions that round if he prepares for the charge. The target can ignore the charge, but will likely get skewered. He can still use CA's to defend (but still has to save one to oppose the charge).

Preparing for the charge can be to declare an Evade or Set Against Charge (longer weapon strongly recommended) as in the rules. Parry is also an option (mentioned as allowed on the boards by Loz).

If the target of the charge parries instead of Evading or Setting against the charge the Size of the Attacking weapon is considered one size larger than normal.

 

[dbhoward]

Well I hope the creating confusion wasn't intentional.

:lol:

I do get the feeling there was some unresolved tension about how crunchy the designers wanted the rules to be vs. how much should be roleplayed... Loz and Pete are carrying on the grand tradition of Stafford and Perrin.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Well a Sprint takes the entire round and can be the only action taken. So in practice on your first SR you would sprint up to 40 meters (unarmored human) and be done for the round.

Why would sprint take entire round? It is my understanding that one could sprint for 20 meters, do another action and then sprint another 20 meters for 3 CAs.

 

[Rurik]

Why would sprint take entire round? It is my understanding that one could sprint for 20 meters, do another action and then sprint another 20 meters for 3 CAs.

Doh, you are right. Sprinting taking the entire round is one of My houserules, and I had convinced myself it was an official rule (gullible me).

The reason I restrict sprinting as the only action in a round is that really 40 meters in 5 seconds is professional athlete like times. In the US Football (NFL) scouts rate top prospects, and top running backs do the 40 yard in about 4.5 seconds (not in football gear, and from a sprint type starting position).

So moving 20 meters, doing an action or two, and moving another 20 meters in one round doesn't seem right to me. Nor does attacking, parrying, castinging a spell, and then running 40 meters in a round.

That is why I rule that if sprinting it is the ONLY thing you can do that round - you spend the whole round at an all out run. It was my bad to represent it as an official rule (though I misremebered it as being one).

I am probably sticking with it for the charge to. I think I've decided to break charges into two distinct types though: Charge to Impact and Charge to Pass (flyby), each with their rules seperated.

 

[Foxtrap]

Charge is Move+Attack in a single CA.

It is? Because in the example of play a character uses his last CA of a round to charge - and he doesn't get to attack until the round after. (Thrace on page 99)

 

[Rurik]

Charge is Move+Attack in a single CA.

It is? Because in the example of play a character uses his last CA of a round to charge - and he doesn't get to attack until the round after. (Thrace on page 99)

From page 84:

Charge: If enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack. If successful, damage may be increased. See Charging on page 89.

I assume in the example the GM is ruling that Thrace is too far away to impact with his first CA.