Concerning Improved Unarmed attack

[David St-Michel]

Let's say you have a barbarian.

Let's say he gets up to level 7.

Versatility at this level basically gives him proficiency with every single weapon possible.

Does this include unarmed attacks?

I've read a few stories in which Conan beats the crap out of people with his bare fists, yet he dosen't have Imp. Unarmed.

And if Versatility at level 7 basically gives Improved Unarmed Attack, does that allow the character access to Improved Grapple?

And speaking of this matter... The same Barbarian is level 2. He has Versatility (-2), which means that anything he picks up and isn't proficient with only has a -2 to attack, instead of the -4.

Is that considered "proficiency" in case of a fist-fight with someone who has Improved Unarmed Attack?

Thank you.

 

[Krushnak]

Every one is proficient in unarmed attacks the important thing about improved unarmed is that it means you actually count as being armed, dont provoke attacks of opportunity against armed opponents and can deal lethal damage and crits. Barbarian versatility doesnt give any bonuses to unarmed attacks but does let him use a chair or table instead if he doesnt have improved unarmed.

I always thought Conan would've had improved unarmed.

 

[treeplanter]

yeah he got brawl instead. maybe imp. unarmed strike and brawl should just be fusioned together (as somebody mentionned in another thread)

 

[David St-Michel]

Ok let me rephrase my question, then :

One combattant has Improved Unarmed Attack.

The other is a level 2 barbarian, with Versatility (-2).

Will the barbarian cause attacks of opportunity to his opponent?

Second phase of the question :

When the same barbarian gets to level 7 and is considered proficient with all weapons, it is suggested that he has Improved Unarmed Attack free of charge at that level, and does not cause attacks of opportunity (since he could pick up a bar stool and not cause attacks of opportunity)?

 

[treeplanter]

I would say no to both. If he pick up a bar stool then fine, but versatility do not grant improved unarmed strike feat. It just give proficiency with all weapon. Let him pick up the bar stool and suffer the attack of opportunity.

Also the DM is the final judge to decide what is an improvised weapon is a valid threat or not.

 

[Der Rote Baron]

The difference between Improved Unarmed Attack and Brawl is basically:
Do you want to kick shut in a barroom brwal, be proficient in fisticuffs and knock people out? - Take Brawl.

Do you want to apply fists and feet to where it hurts BADLY, kill people with your bare hands and do you like to kick people and break their knees in the middle of a battle (as a second attack) and catch their sword mit clapping your hands? - Take Improved Unarmed Attack.

Do you like to do both and really Kung Fu Fight? - Take both because Brawling improves your unarmed damage.

Or take the optional Martial Artist Class though I am not a big fan of extra-classes.

 

[Clovenhoof]

That's right, IUS only lets you avoid AoOs when fighting armed opponents, but you don't suffer an attack penalty if you don't have it.

So Versatility will not help you with Unarmed Combat. However, note that Improved and Greater Mobility can do just that. With Improved Mobility, you just move back and forth a bit (legwork, boy!), and get a single blow at your opponent without provoking an AoO. With Greater Mobility, you can do the same with a Full Attack.

So by the RAW, you still need IUS as prereq for Improved Grapple. You can still houserule that if you don't like it, of course.

 

[treeplanter]

I don't think improved mobility let you avoid attack of oportunity from figthing unarmed. It let you avoid attack of oportunity made while moving in or out a threatened square. So in your exemple, you'll move in, attack (provoke AOO), move out (provoke AOO) if you don't have improved mobility. You'll ignore the second one with IM.

 

[David St-Michel]

Whoa, whoa whoa.

Assume that I'm a bit slow for a moment.

I think IUS means Improved Unarmed Strike.

AaO would be Attack of Opportunity.

by the RAW? That one I don't get.

But now I get the point. Basically, Brawl just makes you punch harder. Imp. Unarmed Strike actually makes you a decent combattant while unarmed.

And I am not a big fan of extra classes either.

Thanks to everyone though.

 

[treeplanter]

RAW = Rule as written

 

[David St-Michel]

thank you.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I don't think improved mobility let you avoid attack of oportunity from figthing unarmed. It let you avoid attack of oportunity made while moving in or out a threatened square. So in your exemple, you'll move in, attack (provoke AOO), move out (provoke AOO) if you don't have improved mobility. You'll ignore the second one with IM.

Nope, what you describe is the D&D Spring Attack feat, which doesn't exist in Conan. Check the rule text in the class descriptions again:
"[the character] never provokes Attacks of Opportunity, whatever he does, as long as he moves at least 10 feet during that combat round."

So this also covers maneuvers like bullrushing, tripping, grappling, folding a paper airplane, or smashing someone's jaw with a fist.

By the way, the literal reading of this ability can lead to paradox situations, because it says nowhere that you have to move those 10 feet _before_ doing anything else to be immune against AoOs.
"If I draw an AoO and he hits me so hard that I drop, I cannot complete my movement. But if I survive the blow and don't drop so I can complete my movement, he wasn't entitled to an AoO against me to begin with!" *implodes*

 

[treeplanter]

yeah you're right, I read the mobility i tough improved was the logical improvment (greater bonus, same situation). Not sure this was intended to be written as this anyway.

 

[zozotroll]

If a PC tells me he is going to use greater mob, thats good enough for me. No time warp paradoxes.

 

[Clovenhoof]

If a PC tells me he is going to use greater mob, thats good enough for me. No time warp paradoxes.

Okay, how about this situation: the PC is cornered or surrounded, all adjacent squares occupied and wants to break through to gain some breathing space. So what he needs to do is to Overrun or Bullrush an enemy. That normally provokes an AoO.
So, IF he succeeds and overruns one enemy, he can move at least 10 feet and use Improved Mobility. But if he botches his roll and fails to overrun, he can't move, and thus is susceptible to the AoO. Which is supposed to be resolved _before_ the Overrun attempt, which is the cause of the paradox.

A possible solution would be to roll AoOs normally, but apply any damage only if the PC fails to move his 10 feet. Which, however, can lead to weird "limbo states" when a PC would take enough damage from the AoO to be killed.

But wait it gets even _more_ complicated:
Imagine one character (C1) wants to move, and another (C2) wants to use his AoO to make a Trip attempt. If the trip succeeds, the C1 falls prone and thus can't move 10'. If the trip fails, C1 can move, denying the NPC the complete trip attempt in the first place! So C2 needs to perform an AoO to deny C1 his movement, but he is only entitled to the AoO if he _managed_ to deny C1 his movement.
It's mind-boggling, at least for me.

 

[treeplanter]

I would rule here he provoke AOO as long as he have not moved 10ft. Since he is squeezed and don't have room for moving, using mobility here make no sense. If he succed in moving 10 feet (after the AOO from bullrush/overrun) then he could use mobility for the remainder of his movement.

 

[zozotroll]

I have played many many RPG and wargames over the decades. A couple of things to remeber.
Be consistant. Remeber how you did it last time and stay with it.

Use sense. As long as it makes sense to you and your players, most people will be happy.

Be a gamer not a lawyer. It is better to have fun than to be letter perfect on the rules.

Dont hose your players. Something like Mobility is not going to be used by the bad guys very much if ever. Let your players use thier cool abilitys when it makes sense to do so.

 

[David St-Michel]

My thoughts exactly, sir/madam/souless demon of the Empty Void.

I am a rules minimalist. I go for the story, the fun, and the entertainement value first and foremost. Everything else is second.

We've had fights that were resolved without a single die being rolled. I mean, hell... An 18-Strength Vanir Barbarian woman (who HAPPENDS to have Cha 16) swings a broadsword and the poor dude wasn't expecting a fight? Splash of blood, one dead dude to pillage.