Conan Saga Edition?

[thulsa]

While we are waiting for the Second Edition of Mongoose's Conan rules, Wizards of the Coast are releasing the "Saga Edition" of Star Wars.

Many predict that the changes done to the d20 System in the Saga Edition will be an indication of things to come in D&D 4th Edition.

Some of the relevant (from a sword and sorcery perspective) changes are described here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview1

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview4

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5


This is very interesting because it seems that the emphasis is on simplifying things that are unnecessarily complex in the current edition (such as consolidating skills and doing away with skill ranks). I, for one, welcome all changes that reduces the time it takes to stat up characters and NPCs.

Other changes speed up combat, which is also good. I actually think the cinematic feel of Star Wars has a lot in common with the pulp stories which Conan is based on. Keep it simple, keep the action moving.

So if this is the direction of D&D 4th Edition, count me interested. Let's just hope that WotC keeps the d20 System as an open license, so that the mechanics can be used by others, such as Mongoose for the Conan RPG.

Of course, the changes could be ported to the current edition as house rules, but it would be nice to have a common platform for all games which is officially supported and legal.

That was today's rant, now back to hibernation...

- thulsa

 

[Clovenhoof]

If they do it for D&D, it will certainly also be part of the new SRD.

I particularly like the ideas they had for the skill system.
Consolidating skills sounds good, like merging Listen, Spot etc. into Perception.
Also, no more fiddling with ranks. A simple formula introducing a skill progression by level. Lovely.

I don't suppose Mongoose will adopt that into Conan 2E, though it would indeed be a good idea.

 

[Ichabod]

The talent trees sound interesting as a way to compensate for what they are doing with skills.

I actually like the current Conan skill system. While I don't like how, say, Profession works, I'm quite fond of the idea of characters not looking alike. By far the most interesting thing to me when levelling up is skill ranks since it's usually the area that you can diverge from other characters (characters in your game or that could have been created with the same attributes/levels/etc.).

I can see where designing NPCs would be a pain if you did it right, though they are NPCs and you could just say that they have +X to their skill roll and not do any calculations at all. Use PC bonuses as a guide or something. And, I can see the problem with people not having enough of a skill to usefully take part in a situation - a situation we have had frequently, though maybe not so much a problem. After all, the GM can know what the characters are capable of and create situations that play to strengths and weaknesses for dramatic intent. To get off on a tangent, one thing I firmly believe is that a GM should make useful anything the player puts on the character sheet.

Still, it didn't take me too many plays to dislike old AD&D characters because they were so defined by class and level. By getting away from customizing skills, they are moving back towards that old model (at least in this regard).

I see one of the vast improvements of Conan over other d20, including D&D, is in how many more skill ranks classes tend to get. I don't know Star Wars, but if they are giving a bunch of 2+'s to classes like D&D does, then I can see a great frustration from a player's side. I'd really start every class at about 6+ per level so that players have real options and don't ignore less used skills.

 

[Clovenhoof]

That's a valid point, taking away ranks and merging skills at the same time will probably make the skill list of many a character look alike. So from that point of view, it's good to retain more diversity in skills and their grades.

But I have also made the observation made in the linked article: that players pick a number of skills and keep these maxed out as much as possible. And usually these skills go in bundles.
If you have them as class skills, you don't raise Spot without raising Listen. And you don't specialize in Move Silently while neglecting Hide. So, I do think you could safely merge these into Perception and Stealth.
(On that note, I feel that Sense Motive has more to do with insight into human nature, and not sensual acuity, so I would not merge that into Perception like the SW guys suggest.)

Merging skills like these while retaining the rank system may have exactly the effect you desire: it frees up skill points for players to sink into other, often neglected skills.

 

[thulsa]

Still, it didn't take me too many plays to dislike old AD&D characters because they were so defined by class and level. By getting away from customizing skills, they are moving back towards that old model (at least in this regard).

As you mention yourself, the talent trees will make up for this and allows you to create very different characters based on the same base class.

It's also interesting to see that the saving "throws" are now fixed values which you roll against, and that the Defense value is actually your Dex save. That is a pretty good fit for the Conan RPG as the Reflex save is almost never used otherwise (not many breath weapons, magic missiles, lightning bolts, and magic traps to dodge in low-magic worlds).

These static values speed up gameplay, because there are fewer rolls being made.

It also implies that poisons, for example, would have "attack bonuses" since you would roll against a victim's static Fortitude value to see if he was affected.

Would be very tempting to try out some of these mechanics as house rules in one or more "test sessions"...

- thulsa

 

[Clovenhoof]

Re: Saves
I have a feeling the "burden of proof" is simply reversed in many cases. That may not apply to SW (don't know the system really) or to Conan, but if these changes are supposed to make it into the SRD, they need to be adopted by D&D 4E.
And in D&D, it's not the spellcaster rolling to see if his spell "hits" (except Concentration checks), it's the target rolling to see if it saves. If Saves become a static value, and the caster rolls a "Magic Attack" much like in Conan now, the only difference is WHO makes the roll.

Apart from that, another common trigger for Reflex Saves are traps. These also used to have a certain DC, and just comparing DCs to a static save may be a tad boring.

If you want static saves for Conan, because casters already roll Magic Attack, simply consider the alternative Defense Roll rule and reverse it: replace the D20 roll with a static 10, end of story.

That, however, would then also apply to MDS (it simply wouldn't make sense to have some saves where you roll and some where you don't). I'm not sure that's a good idea. Consider that even at Con 18, a fighter-type character will ALWAYS be dropped by 20 points of damage during his first 7 levels. A Thief doesn't even stand a chance until level 18 or something. Against 20 points of damage, mind you, unless the MD saves DC would be significantly reduced.

 

[Krushnak]

i think some of the changes for saga are good and some i'll have to wait and see but i really think alot of it is better suited to modern and futuristic settings. for skills conan does allow everyone to roll on every skill just if its a 'trained only' the best you will get is a 10 which is enough to assist someone with actual ranks in it. it really doesnt make sense to just be a capable shipwright because your lvl 14 when you've never even see a boat or a sizeable body of water, it makes even less sense with knowledge skills in a fantasy game. however for a modern or future setting like starwars were you have things like the internet and public libraries aswell as hobby clubs and so on access to information is open to all and is a rather reasonable thing for some of the skills but still not all.

i fear they may be over simplifying the game way too much.

i merged some skills in my game that i always thought should have been merged. the first 2 i feel are definately the ones needing it the most. ive found it to be very helpful to all but especially to the two soldiers in the party and allows the 3 wilderness classes to complete what i consider their core class function with their class skills alone; stealth, awareness, survival and athletics. whereas usually you need a good int bonus to just get all of those not including anything else you might want.

spot+listen= awareness
hide+move silently= stealth
jump+swim+climb= athletics, also useable for opposed running checks and stuff like javelin and discus throwing outside of comat.
tumble+balance= acrobatics.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Nice ones, Krushnak.
That way, you get, let's see: 9 for the price of 4. ^^
I think I may do the same in my game. I wanted to re-write my players' charsheets anyway (to fix some mistakes). The only thing that has kept me from merging skills is the changes to the charsheet. oO

BTW, are there any customizable Conan character sheets for download somewhere? I find the official one somewhat lacking.

 

[Spectator]

I agree krushnak, soldiers who get 2 skill points a level, get scammed under the current system.

It sucked everytime I wanted a soldier I had to make him a first level thief to compensate for the terrible skillpoints.

 

[Trodax]

Yes, I've also been eyeing the previews for Saga with interest. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but I like what I see for the system.

Consolidation of skills I really like, basically the ones suggested by Krushnak above I think make a lot of sense. I'm hoping for at least some of those in Conan 2nd editition.

No skill ranks I think I might like as well, although I don't really have any problem with the way it works in Conan either. They're obviously making the Skill Focus feat more important, which looks interesting; if you want to be good at a skill, you'll both be trained in it and have Skill Focus. I haven't really understood how it will work to get trained in a new skill later on. Will you get a new skill once and a while from your class, or will you just have a number of skills from level 1 that you're stuck with?

 

[MongooseMatt]

I particularly like the ideas they had for the skill system.
Consolidating skills sounds good, like merging Listen, Spot etc. into Perception.

We have been doing that for years

 

[Clovenhoof]

You have? Then why didn't you write it into the Conan rules, for Crissake! ^^