Conan of Venarium

[Supplement Four]

I started reading Turtledove's book. I'd heard that it wasn't that good, and I haven't read enough of it to have an opinon of my own. But, I will say that I'm enjoying the book so far.

The Aquilonians aren't card-board, two dimensional bad guys. They're protecting their border from the raiding and pilliaging that happens every summer as various Cimmerian clans come down out of the mountains and lay waste to an Aquilonian village.

It looks like Turtledove through out anything that de Camp might have established as canon before writing the book. Conan's village is called Duthil. His father is a blacksmith, named Mordec. His mother is called Verina. She did birth him on the battlefield, but that was twelve years ago. Now, she's sick, dying.

Although not stated specifically, Turtledove has Duthil placed in southern Cimmeria (since the village is among the first to hear of the Aquilonian invasion), which goes against convention that Conan's village lies in the northern part of the country.

I do like a small section I just read. Mordec is gearing up for the coming encounter, and Conan asks him about making mail armor. His father replies, "A helm can be forged of two pieces of iron and rivited up the center. But a byrnie is a different business. Making any mail is slow, and making good mail is slower. Each ring must be shaped, and joined to its neighbors, and rivited so that it cannot slip in place. In the time that I would need to finish one coat of mail, I could do so may other things, making armor would not be worth my while."

Explains why Cimmerians typically wear helmets and might carry a shield but little else in the way or armor. Cimmerian mail must be rare, indeed.

 

[Sir Hackalot]

Dark Horse did a story about Venarium in their Conan comic. It was pretty good.

 

[Supplement Four]

Dark Horse did a story about Venarium in their Conan comic. It was pretty good.

Yeah, I read the Born on the Battlefield graphic novel, if that's what you're referring to.

 

[Jotenbjorn]

I know I'm in the minority, but I really liked Conan of Vanarium far more than any other Conan backstory.

 

[Supplement Four]

I know I'm in the minority, but I really liked Conan of Vanarium far more than any other Conan backstory.

I may join you in the minority, because, so far, I'm really diggin' the book.

I'm not sure what all the griping was about, unless its because Turtledove didn't write his tale with de Camp & Co's established canon in mind.

From what I can see, Turtledove paid attention to what Howard wrote, and that's it. (Although, I think even Howard said that Conan's village was in northern Cimmeria, yes? That Conan's grandfather came from the south?)

Again, Conan's village hasn't been located in the work, but common sense says its in the south. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm not sure what all the griping was about, unless its because Turtledove didn't write his tale with de Camp & Co's established canon in mind.

I kinda look at Conan tales, though, as if he were a real-world character of myth and legend, like Robin Hood or King Arthur, or even the great Greek legends, like Troy. Maybe it was based on real events and people, and maybe not--but the tale is so old that the details change based on who is telling the story.

Like the characters in front of the Dark Horse graphic novels and Conan series collections: They're reading from the Nemedian Chronicles about this ancient, mythic king, but some have doubts about the authenticity of what they read.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm still in the beginning of the book, as I'm spending more of my reading time going over Cimmera with a fine toothed comb. But, I read the initial attack on Venarium today, and I gotta tell ya--that was a damn exciting fight.

I like the way Turtledove tells the tale from the view point of both sides.

 

[VincentDarlage]

You guys might try reading Dale Rippke's review of the novel. I couldn't find anything redeeming about the novel - and this review explains better than I ever could.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080212055458/http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/Cmuse13.html

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, it's too early for me to tell. I'm only in the early chapters. I'm just saying that I've heard a lot of negative about it, but I've been surprised with how much I'm enjoying the book.

Maybe it will turn south later, but for now, it's been a pleasant surprise.

Of course, I like a lot of the pastiches. You've got to be Steve Perry or Roland Green for me not to like your work (and I'm not that crazy about Leonard Carpenter's work, either. I always get bored with his stuff even though he seems to do his research--his writing is just uninspired).





*EDIT

I see from the link that Ripke's issues are mainly with existing Conan canon. I knew Turtledove wrote his own story, and pre-existing Conan "facts" be damned. So, I was at peace with that going into the book.

I liked LSdC's novelization of the first Conan movie, too, and it didn't quite fit with existing Conan lore.

JMR's Conan The Bold is a fantastic Conan book, but it really can't exist within the more accepted timelines.

So, I guess I've made peace with the Conan "facts" not always lining up. I look at the tales as "myth" anyway...as if Conan was real, and we really don't know that much about him--just what's been accepted.

If you're not looking for Conan lore, so far, Venarium is a good book.

Of course, I haven't spent a lot of time with young Conan yet--just his dad.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Turtledove has Duthil placed in southern Cimmeria (since the village is among the first to hear of the Aquilonian invasion), which goes against convention that Conan's village lies in the northern part of the country.

That's not just convention. REH actually stated it was in the north west in a letter he wrote. "He was born on a battle field, during a fight between his tribe and a horde of raiding Vanir. The country claimed by and roved over by his clan lay in the northwest of Cimmeria..." (Letter from REH to P. Schuyler Miller, March 10, 1936)

Turtledove didn't just throw out deCamp and Carter stuff (which is fine), he also threw out Howard stuff - and even Conan's basic character traits. Also, his Cimmeria is too civilized to have produced Howard's barbarian. To me, he failed to capture the basic gloominess of Cimmeria as portrayed by Howard.

 

[Phobos]

Where can I purchase that book? I don´t want to sound "heretic" but I ´ve read a lot of pastiches, and I can´t think how this books could be worse than those.

 

[Supplement Four]

Turtledove didn't just throw out deCamp and Carter stuff (which is fine), he also threw out Howard stuff - and even Conan's basic character traits. Also, his Cimmeria is too civilized to have produced Howard's barbarian. To me, he failed to capture the basic gloominess of Cimmeria as portrayed by Howard.

As I said, I'm OK with the change in things. To me, it's like reading "myth". I mean, Robert Jordan's Conan is a much different person than Howard's Conan. I do like Howard's gritty Conan better, but Jordan's "good guy super hero" Conan is a damn good read.

The key to reading pastiches and Conan stories not written by Howard is to accept that some thing will be different.

I'm just in it to enjoy the story. I recognize where it differs from convention, and I accept it by just saying to myself, "Oh...this is another version of the myth."

I like that it's more "historical" reading, as Ripke put it, than Sword & Sorcery. It puts some variety in there. I don't like reading about an ancient Stygian necromancer each time I pick up a Conan tale. It's nice to have a different flavor.

So...so far...I really like the book. I'm only on page 50, so that may change. But the first attack at Venarium was, I think, a damn well written battle scene with the Cimmerians screaming and howling out of the woods.

I like how Turtledove is portraying Conan's father, and I like the dual vision showing the Aquilonian side of things. The Aquilonians aren't just 2D bad guys--you could flip the story around, and the Cimmerians can be the bad guys.

I like that.

 

[Supplement Four]

Where can I purchase that book? I don´t want to sound "heretic" but I ´ve read a lot of pastiches, and I can´t think how this books could be worse than those.

Amazon has it, but the reviews tend to side with Vincent.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm definitely in the minority on this book, because I think its fantastic. It's well written. The plot is gripping me even though I already know, basically, what happens at Venarium.

Yes, there is a big flub Turtledove makes in placing Conan's home village in the south of Cimmeria instead of the north. I don't know if this is something that got looked over in Turtledove's reasearch or if he decided to make the change specific, ignoring what REH wrote in letters. And, from what I understand, CPI considers this Turtledove book part of the Conan canon along with Poul Anderson's Conan The Rebel.

Turtledove needs Conan's home village of Duthil to be close to Venarium for his plot, and maybe the writer believes that canon isn't established until its written in a story (not counting REH's letters). I don't know--just speculating.

Other people make a big who-do about the use of the bow in this book by Cimmerians. I've got to tell you. I lack one chapter from finishing the book and not one person has even been shot by a Cimmerian with a bow.

Maybe that will happen in the last chapter. I'll report back, if it does. But, even if it does, I'm thinking I can give Turtledove a break on this. The Cimmerians were fighting for their homeland. It is the first time in their history that so many clans united. I'm thinking that maybe the normal rules don't apply.

I've been slow to read this book, not because it didn't keep calling me back (it did) but because my reading time has been devoted to reading Conan RPG material (a lot of it when you buy the entire line at one time).

I've got about one chapter and a few pages to go, and I'm stoked! I can't wait for the climax!

Check this out....




"Hear me, men of Cimmeria!" cried Herth in a great voice. "Hear me, men of valor! We have come, many of us, from afar to right a great wrong and to drive the foul invaders from the south out of our land forevermore." He pointed southward, over the hills Mordec and Balarg and Nectan had crossed not long before. "Well, warriors? Shall we set out brothers free?"

"Aye!" Like a wave, the answering shout swelled and swelled, until at last it filled the great encampement. That one ferocious, indomitable word came echoing back from the hills, again and again: "Aye! Aye! Aye!"

Herth pointed toward the south once more. "Forward, then!" he shouted.

And forward the Cimmerians went. No Aquilonian army could have done the like. Aquilonians, civilized men, traveled with an elaborate baggage train. The Cimmerians simply abandoned everything they could not carry with them. They had briefly paused here to gather in full force. For that, lean-tos and tents had proved desireable. Now the Cimmerians forgot them. They woud eat what they carried in belt pouches and wallets. They would sleep wrapped in wool blankets, or else on bare ground.

But, they would march like men possessed. And they would fight like men insane. Past that, what else mattered?

They had no generals, no colonels, no captains. They had clan chiefs--and listened to them when they felt like it. In long, straggling columns, they followed several tracks that led into and through the hills separating them from the province the Aquilonians had carved out of their country. They had only the vaguest notion of what they would find there. They cared very little. If it was not of Cimmeria, they would slay it.

I find myself standing up, looking at the pages, yelling at the book, "Go get 'em, the bastards! Go get 'em Conan! Go! Go! Go!"

Goose bumps.

 

[Supplement Four]

Other people make a big who-do about the use of the bow in this book by Cimmerians. I've got to tell you. I lack one chapter from finishing the book and not one person has even been shot by a Cimmerian with a bow.

Maybe that will happen in the last chapter. I'll report back, if it does.

I didn't realize it, but there were two chapters to read. Yes, bows are used by Cimmerians to kill the invaders at Venarium. There's only a couple of mentions of it, but it is mentioned.

I'm OK with it.

The way I see it, this book does go against convention in that there's no mention of Conan's grandfather--who's supposed to fill him with stories and wonder at traveling among the Hyborians. And, Conan's village isn't in the northern west part of Cimmeria. In this book, it's not too far from where Venarium stood. And, if you want to make a big deal about the bows, well, there's that, too.

But, Crom! It's a good book! A great read! It's exciting and well written and gives us one of the few looks at Cimmerian life.

I love the way Turtledove describes the story from both sides of the conflict. There were times where I found myself rooting for the Aquilonians because I'd spent a lot of time with those characters.

I like the way Conan is described as well. His pure, animalistic drive to survive--to conquer. I can see this youth becoming the mighty barbarian we all know.

There's even an encounter in this book where, if seen through the eyes of a Conan RPG GM, low level Conan fights with a very high level character (probaby 8th level in my game--could be as high as 12th level). Conan wins, of course. We know he's not killed in this book. But, I like the way Turtledove has him win. He almost loses. It's not a straight out fight. Clearly the Aquilonian has much more skill.

But, Conan is cunning. He pulls one fo the few tactics that will allow a 1st level Barbarian to beat a 8th or 12th level Soldier. I won't tell you how he did it so that I won't spoil the story, but when I read it, I was pleased the fight was handled that way.

I say again. This is a good book. Highly enjoyable. And, the climax is everything I was hoping it would be.