Choke...

[Deadpool]

Violent choke rules are in the book that one can hold their breath for one round per point of constitution. Even though I haven't choked anyone, it seems that at average constitution of 10 that it would take 10 rounds before that person would even be hurting.

Most of my combats rarely last that long. Does anyone use a varient rule for choking? I think that a constitution check should be required every round or at least subdual damage should be inflicted per round.

I would like to get other GMs ideas on this...

Thanks

 

[VincentDarlage]

A combat round is only six seconds (page 154 in AE). Ten rounds is only a minute of real time. I can hold my breath for a minute before I start to really hurt. Of course, you can always house rule it however you would like.

 

[Trodax]

A combat round is only six seconds (page 154 in AE). Ten rounds is only a minute of real time. I can hold my breath for a minute before I start to really hurt. Of course, you can always house rule it however you would like.

This is probably going to sound really nitpicky, but I would think you'd run out of oxygen a lot faster than that if you were frantically struggling for your life.

Also, isn't your windpipe at serious risk from damage if your being choked by someone strong enough? I can't remember the story he was in or his name, but didn't that "Mr. Professional Strangler-guy" that Conan slugged it out with end up getting his windpipe totally mushed under Conans iron fingers?

Of course, I can't say for sure as I don't have any RL experience of either choking people or being choked (thank God! :wink: ).

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

Keep in mind that if the victim does any strenuous action like try and break the grapple or such, they reduce the amount of time they can hold their breath by 1 round. So in the example you gave, they would only be holding their breath for 5 rounds or 30 seconds. (Assuming they were struggling but unable to break the grapple.)

 

[Trodax]

Keep in mind that if the victim does any strenuous action like try and break the grapple or such, they reduce the amount of time they can hold their breath by 1 round. So in the example you gave, they would only be holding their breath for 5 rounds or 30 seconds. (Assuming they were struggling but unable to break the grapple.)

Oh, there are rules for that?! Cool.
Obviously, I must study my rulebook more carefully.

 

[Tegman]

Unfortunately, I have some experience in strangling...

Me and my cousine was around 12-13 years old when we where playing and I had a leather cord that I put around his neck with the words "I'm an assassin" (don't watch movies ).

He said, afterwards, that:
"I just saw something pass before my eyes (it was the leather cord) and then I felt something constraining my neck/throat. A few seconds after that I saw black spots appearing that grew and grew and finally it all went black."

From my point of view:
I put the cord around his neck and pulled, he struggled for maybe 5-10 seconds (can't remember the exact time, it's 22 years since it happend) before he dropped to the ground. Naturally, I thought he was trying to fool me (like always) so I said i don't buy it, but he didn't answer (not that I expected him to do that).

When he woke up, after just a couple of seconds, he told me what happened and after that incident, we never tried to 'play assassin' again, that's for sure.

It went so fast I still can't believe it, but the cord must have prevented the blood to flow to his brain, and therefore cause the fast incapacitation that he suffered. Luckily he escaped unharmed from the accident.

So, if you strangle someone, you will probably not just put preasure over the throat, but also around the whole neck and therefore also prohibit the blood flow. Granted, a garrote is much more effective for that, since it will 'dig in' better, but I still think strangulation is underestimated in rpg's (I always remember what happened when me and my cousine played when I read the strangulation rules in rpg's and notice how ineffective they are, it takes forever to strangualte someone).

That was my thoughts, and some experience from me, hope it could shed some light on the issue ('cus it sure turned off the light for my cousine, hovever brief :wink: )

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

Tegmen,

Keep in mind that the rules for holding your breath assume that you are able to get a full breath.

In your cousins case, he probably wasn't able to, and if such a situation acurred in gaming, you could probably half the time required to choke someone.

So in the earlier example, 30 seconds could be dropped to 15 seconds (or 18 if you still consider it being 3 rounds). This would be pretty consistent with your experience.

 

[Tegman]

True, and I just tried to hold my breath, after exhaling, and it became painful after 25 seconds. So add struggle to that and you go down a bit in time (I was sitting in my chair so I didn't use much of the stored oxygen).

Enought of experimentations for today, my working hours are done and I'm off to the movies. I'll tell you all tomorrow how my hanging experiment went (I'm short on willing cousines so I guess I'll have to try it myself, I just hope my fiancee has a sharp knife :wink:

/cheers

 

[Trodax]

Keep in mind that if the victim does any strenuous action like try and break the grapple or such, they reduce the amount of time they can hold their breath by 1 round. So in the example you gave, they would only be holding their breath for 5 rounds or 30 seconds. (Assuming they were struggling but unable to break the grapple.)

Oh, there are rules for that?! Cool.
Obviously, I must study my rulebook more carefully.

Actually, I looked but couldn't find such a rule. Where did you see it?

I'll tell you all tomorrow how my hanging experiment went (I'm short on willing cousines so I guess I'll have to try it myself, I just hope my fiancee has a sharp knife :wink:

:lol: You better check in here tomorrow then, or we'll start to worry that your little experiment went all to well...

I guess at least its better than trying to verify/disprove the rules for Sneak attacks or Critical hits... :wink:

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

Keep in mind that if the victim does any strenuous action like try and break the grapple or such, they reduce the amount of time they can hold their breath by 1 round. So in the example you gave, they would only be holding their breath for 5 rounds or 30 seconds. (Assuming they were struggling but unable to break the grapple.)

Oh, there are rules for that?! Cool.
Obviously, I must study my rulebook more carefully.

Actually, I looked but couldn't find such a rule. Where did you see it?

I do not have a rule book in front of me right now, but look up the rules invovling swimming and holding your breath. It is eaither there, or I am transplanting 3.0/3.5 rules that are more explicit on the subject into Conan.

So many rules, so many game systems, so little IQ for me to handle it all.

 

[urdinaran]

I have a friend who trains for Ultimate Fighting(Ju Jitsu, Submission fighting, etc.); He showed me a particular move to "choke-out" someone from behind. Done properly you won't last 6 seconds. I have actually seen someone do it, and it is fast. Check out some of the UFC and MMA fights on TV. Any time someone gets into a choke hold they usually tap-out real fast because they know they won't last. When your airway is properly constricted and you can't get out of the move, you pretty much go into a shock of sorts (its your body telling you this don't feel right, time to shut down).

Just my $0.02

 

[Trodax]

I do not have a rule book in front of me right now, but look up the rules invovling swimming and holding your breath. It is eaither there, or I am transplanting 3.0/3.5 rules that are more explicit on the subject into Conan.

OK, found it! Right there, under the Swim skill. My thick barbarian skull didn't even think to look there. Thanks!

Although, I must say I'm a bit confused as how to interpret the rules on this right now.

What it says under the Swim skill (in both Conan and D&D3.5) is that you can hold your breath for Con rounds (half that if you do anything else than a Move action) before you have to start making Con checks.

The rules for suffocation and drowning in DMG3.5 (page 304), OTOH, say you can hold your breath for 2xCon rounds before you must start making the checks. These rules say nothing of the restrictions on actions. The Choke feat in Road of Kings duplicates these rules as the "Normal Suffocation Rules". Whats special about the Choke feat though, is that you can only hold out for Con rounds (as opposed to 2xCon) because its a "violent suffocation".

So how to put all this together? I'm not convinced the restriction of Move actions only is meant to be applied to the effects of the Choke feat.
Maybe someone can help me out? :?

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

I guess how I put it together is as follows:

"Violent suffication" = Con rounds
"Normal Suffication = Con x 2 rounds
Move action = -0 rounds
Standard or Full action = -1 round

Any other takers?

 

[Trodax]

I have a friend who trains for Ultimate Fighting(Ju Jitsu, Submission fighting, etc.); He showed me a particular move to "choke-out" someone from behind. Done properly you won't last 6 seconds. I have actually seen someone do it, and it is fast. Check out some of the UFC and MMA fights on TV. Any time someone gets into a choke hold they usually tap-out real fast because they know they won't last. When your airway is properly constricted and you can't get out of the move, you pretty much go into a shock of sorts (its your body telling you this don't feel right, time to shut down).

Although I'm sure choking someone is probably a very effective way of killing someone in RL, I don't think it would work out all that well to try to make it that deadly in the game. I mean, hitting someone with a sword is also pretty deadly, but the way d20 combat works you'll probably have to get in a few good whacks to drop your opponent (if he has a couple of levels under his belt).
If choking was modeled to be absolutely realistic, you might get high level characters dropping their swords and going for the insta-kill-throat-hold!

 

[Trodax]

I guess how I put it together is as follows:

"Violent suffication" = Con rounds
"Normal Suffication = Con x 2 rounds
Move action = -0 rounds
Standard or Full action = -1 round

Hmmm, possibly.
From a strict reading of the rules, I would arrive at this:

"Drowning"= Con rounds, -1 round for every Standard or Full action
"Normal suffocation" = Con x 2 rounds
"Violent suffocation" = Con rounds

If the Choke feat was meant to use the rules given for drowning under the Swim skill, I really think it would have said so. It does alter the effectiveness of Choke quite a bit.
Do you even distinguish between Move and Standard actions in the grappling rules?

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

Hmmm, possibly.
From a strict reading of the rules, I would arrive at this:

"Drowning"= Con rounds, -1 round for every Standard or Full action
"Normal suffocation" = Con x 2 rounds
"Violent suffocation" = Con rounds

If the Choke feat was meant to use the rules given for drowning under the Swim skill, I really think it would have said so. It does alter the effectiveness of Choke quite a bit.
Do you even distinguish between Move and Standard actions in the grappling rules?

You could lie there and hope a comrad knocks the guy off of you (which was done by a PC in my campaign), or you could try and break the grapple (standard action).

Like I said originally, I may be mixing rules a bit, but I like where I came to a little better, especially in light of what others have weighed in on for how long it would take to kill someone via strangling.

As far as:

If the Choke feat was meant to use the rules given for drowning under the Swim skill, I really think it would have said so.

Let's be completely honest, Mongoose has not been the most efficient in the transfer of rules from d20 to Conan's OGL, even with the AE edition. I am definitely not one of those who constantly complains about errors and ambiguities, but I don't hold an omission like the suffocation thing as a proof of rules intention.

 

[Deadpool]

This forum went way further than I thought. There is a choke feat in Oriental D&D 3.5 and it only lasts 2 rounds. They get a Fortitude saving throw each round after the first, which gets progressively more difficult. Once they fail they pass out.

I think I am going to have to make this a more deadly form of combat for people that have Improved Grapple and possibly the choke feat (or maneuver). They would know how to stop the blood flow as well as air.

Interesting... I will have to talk it over with the players. Thanks guys for the info...

 

[Sutek]

There's a choke Feat in Road of Kings as I recall, but it's not very good. We debated it in another thread that you might want to do a search of the forums for.

What I'd say is that Suffocation is a simple factor of holding ones breaath, which one is able to manage for a number of rounds equal to CON - damage inflicted each round. Remember that in Conan, zero HP is unconcious, -1 or less is dying and -10 is Left for Dead. If you factor in damage dealt, choking someone if you are very strong might mean death in 1-3 combat rounds. Of course, it's a grapple, and that imparts the victim with a change of breaking the hold, garrote or not. Perhaps a garrote would provide the attacker with double his STR bonus for the opposed STR roll-off when the victim tries to break free.

That is the way I'd run it.