Cargo Containers

[BP]

:lol: :lol:

Perhaps not as much as the folks responsible for this, back in 1999:

• (CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding ...

(World Swearing Record - you do have a way with the words, rust!)

 

[AndrewW]

:lol: :lol:

Perhaps not as much as the folks responsible for this, back in 1999:

• (CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding ...

(World Swearing Record - you do have a way with the words, rust!)

I remember that, Lockheed Martian didn't follow directions...

 

[BP]

Well, the people ultimately responsible didn't test things thoroughly enough...

As I recall, at the time, the 'Investigators' were carefull not to put any real blame on Lockheed :roll:

 

[mmbutter]

Those numbers aren't exact, but they're close enough for gaming.

The main unit used for designs with GURPS is the cubic foot, which is
0,028 cubic meters - no easy conversion there.

Cubic feet / 36 is approximate cubic meters.

 

[BP]

More important: How fast is a Thrust-1 ship in Furlongs per Forthnight?

Well, that depends on how long its been thrusting and how fast it was going initially, of course...

But, since there are so many people familiar with the Furlong/ Firkin/ Fortnight (FFF) system, I'm sure there are plenty who could tell you that Thrust-1 is about 7.2731854 × 10^10 furlongs per fortnight per fortnight.

Of course, Thrust Rating / 14, times 10 to the 12th power should be close enough for gaming.

(Unfortunately, I am rather limited by my SAE upbringing, so while I can do things in Forth, I am unfamiliar with the Forthnight unit of measure - perhaps it is 4/14 fortnights? The conversion should still be simple enough - for gaming purposes...)

 

[mmbutter]

Those numbers aren't exact, but they're close enough for gaming.

The main unit used for designs with GURPS is the cubic foot, which is
0,028 cubic meters - no easy conversion there.

Cubic feet / 36 is approximate cubic meters.

Oh yeah, and BTW, all of the GURPS Traveller vehicle stuff is in dTons anyway. There is a vehicle design section in the main GT book.

 

[rust]

Oh yeah, and BTW, all of the GURPS Traveller vehicle stuff is in dTons anyway. There is a vehicle design section in the main GT book.

This design section is for spaceships only, everything else requires either
GURPS Vehicles or GURPS Robots, and both supplements do not use the
dton.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

It's just math though.

We convert cubic-meters to Dtons without batting an eye (OK, we argue over 13.5 or 14, but still... ). Cubic Feet to Dtons is just a different number ( 36 cubic feet per cubic meter).

Plug and Chug!

 

[BP]

More like 35.3 cu ft per meter

Of course, if your design system is in cubic feet then 1 cubic foot = 0.0283 cubic meters might be important for those opposed to division... :roll:


The dton defined as a volume equivalent to 1.5m x 3m x 3m might seem awkward, especially for us non-metric folk, but this made a dton just shy - about 1 inch per 5 feet - of 5' x 10' x 10'. I prefer the 'rationale' of dton being based on the volume of hydrogen thing - rather than being equal to it (13.5 cubic meters in other words).

 

[phavoc]

I dug up some old notes and found these. Feel free to use them.

Cargo Containers

General Description - Standardized cargo containers are built by various manufacturers throughout the Imperium and share the following characteristics. They are built using a lightweight metal skin along the sides, with reinforcing support in each corner. The doors are slightly reinforced are able to be secured with standard customs seals as well as customer-supplied locking mechanisms. Each container type has built-in structural support and tie-downs to support cargo handling equipment.

Standard containers can support a maximum of 45,000kg without requiring reinforcement. Containers fully loaded can be stacked a maximum of 6 high (at full capacity) prior to structural failure. Most starports and cargo handlers are aware of how to properly stack containers for transport and storage safely.

Dry Storage Container Types:
(Length x Width x Height)
Type A - 3m x 3m x 3m Cr1,000
Type B - 6m x 3m x 3m Cr2,000
Type C - 9m x 3m x3m Cr3,000
Type D - 12m x 3m x 3m Cr4,000
Type E - 15m x 3m x 3m Cr5,000

Containers are not normally able to maintain a sealed environment for long periods of time. They are sufficiently insulated and sealed to retain an atmosphere and temperature for about 1hr in space for most goods. A container that requires its own temperature controls costs x2 of the original cost. This gives a container the capability of supporting an environment for 10 days without requiring servicing or fuel. This does not include gravity however.

Most starports and many worlds have equipment that is able to take a standard container from starport to customer, which includes anti-grav trailers, wheeled trailers and rail.

The containers are sized to take up the standard 1.5m grid structure of most any cargo bay. I made the assumption that a cargo bay is about 3m tall in any ship that handles cargo, so the containers "just" fit and can be moved about. I took some flexibility in the design to not have to bother with making the containers "true" sized and give meter and centimeter measurements for the walls of the container. Suffice it to say they work the same as our tractor trailers today, with thin walls and reinforcement in the corners to support the whole structure and to all it to be stacked. These containers are kind of more like sea-going containers in that they are able to support more weight when being stacked vertical, though most cargo ships aren't going to do that. But with stronger sides also comes the ability to have insulation and the ability to retain an atmosphere for a short period. At least that is my thought process here.

I have some additional notes on specialized containers, like for transporting hazardous chemicals, munitions, etc. And I think I've got something on material handling gear too if anyone is interested.

 

[BP]

Yeah - those were like the sizes I started with (basically 2 ton variants).

But then MGT Core (and Merchant Prince) give figures in 5 ton and 10 ton increments, so I'm thinking 5/10 ton containers should be the norm...

 

[phavoc]

Yeah - those were like the sizes I started with (basically 2 ton variants).

But then MGT Core (and Merchant Prince) give figures in 5 ton and 10 ton increments, so I'm thinking 5/10 ton containers should be the norm...

Only problem with that is it doesn't fit neatly onto deckplans. What would be the dimensions of 5 and 10 ton containers?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

You just need to cook up a container-lifter vehicle (à la 'Civilian Vehicles') to lift them around those starports.

 

[BP]

Only problem with that is it doesn't fit neatly onto deckplans. What would be the dimensions of 5 and 10 ton containers?

Actually - that was one of the original reasons for creating his thread - as no easy 'standard' pops out that fits inside the official deckplans

5 ton = 3m x 3m x 7.5m (2w x 2h x 5l grids)
10 ton = 3m x 3m x 15m

This is kind of big IMO - the 5 ton-ers might fit in some deckplans decently.

I lean more towards 4 ton and 8 ton, myself (your Type B & D) - as they are closer in length to RW Containers (though a bit chunkier).

 

[phavoc]

[Actually - that was one of the original reasons for creating his thread - as no easy 'standard' pops out that fits inside the official deckplans

5 ton = 3m x 3m x 7.5m (2w x 2h x 5l grids)
10 ton = 3m x 3m x 15m

This is kind of big IMO - the 5 ton-ers might fit in some deckplans decently.

I lean more towards 4 ton and 8 ton, myself (your Type B & D) - as they are closer in length to RW Containers (though a bit chunkier).

RW containers are pretty easy. For trucks they come in 28', 40', 45' and 53'. For rail they come in 20', 40', 48' and 53'. Ocean containers come in 20', 40' and 48'. I was trying to model mine after that, but since we are talking interstellar shipments, its a lot easier to containerize a load, even in the smaller container, than to say put it on a loading skid and park it aboard a free trader.

Anyways, I just figured to put some flexibility in things and let people put their cargo out there in ways that worked best for them. I still have some over-sized containers to post, which would accomodate things like vehicles or over-sized cargo. I suppose in some instances it would be easier to ship a vehicle just by tying it down in a cargohold, but it might be easier to handle if its containerized too. YMMV for your campaign.

 

[Fedmahn Kassad]

On Earth, the dimensions for standard containers derives from the width of rail gauge and rail tunnels (i.e. the container has to fit on a train and also through train tunnels). This means that even in these metric times the standard shipping container is 8 feet (2.44 meters) wide.

IMTU the standard size comes from thousands of years of Vilani tradition (and deckplans) Making them (w - l - h):

• 1-ton (1.5m x 3m x 3m) Scout/X-boat/small cargo size
• 2-ton (3x3x3) military pallette size
• 4-ton (3x6x3) standard free trader size
• 9-ton (4.5x9x3) industrial shipping size
• 18-ton (4.5x9x6) this is a double-decker freighter size

All these containers have a standard palette and loading vehicles. The 4-ton is your most common version, with roads, vehicles, docks etc. all across the 3rd Imperum using this size for transportation of goods.

IMTU

 

[Chuckhazard]

I dug up some old notes and found these. Feel free to use them.

Cargo Containers

General Description - Standardized cargo containers are built by various

This is very useful, not just the dimensions but the suggestions on sealed environment. I'm totally going to task my players with salvaging a valuable cargo before it's ruined from decompression.

The next scenario I'm planning on confronting them with is on a mining planet (classic!) where some "freedom fighters" are going to blow up a mineral transport as it transports cargo to the orbiting freighter.

This cargo container talk has me wondering, how would this task be achieved? What's the largest ship that could be used to ferry cargo from ground to orbit? Would it be cost and time effective?

I'm thinking minimal or no contra-grav, ferried on a fat trader (200 ton cargo capacity, largest planet landable ship in basic rules if I recall) maybe gutted in the engine/fuel area since it only needs to go between orbit and ground.

How big would a freighter be for shipping resources between sectors?

Sorry if I started to ramble a bit, my brain starts to fry when I think about the scale of these things...

 

[phavoc]

The easiest way to move large amounts of container cargo from planetside to orbit would be to use a specialized vehicle rather than a true spaceship. I haven't put the pen to paper using the Vehicles design guide to build it, but basically imagine a vehicle (in various sizes obviously) but for this example its a simple rectangle 10m wide by 25m long. Off to one side is a pilot compartment that is a sealed environment, but the rest of the vehicle is simply a loading platfrom. This type of vehicle would take bulky cargo, parts of ships, even whole smaller ships and lift them up out of the atmosphere and into orbit. It doesn't need to be fast, say a max speed of 250 kph empty, it just needs lift capacity. You would stack the containers on the loading platform, strap them down, and off you go to your destination. It's very basic, but it will do the job.

A ship moving large amounts of cargo between sectors might be an oddity. Costs of shipping are going to be high, so i don't think things like agrictultural products would move very far from where they are produced. But in general a bulk freighter is probably going to start around 20,000 tons or more. There is an example of a 100,000 ton ship in one of the books.

You'd also have ships like a modular cutter with a cargo rack whereby it could take multiple containers down to a planet. It wouldnt be as streamlined, but all it would need to do is hover and drop them off and zip back up for more. But as a rule of thumb I don't think its economical for starships to be used for something like this.

 

[Chuckhazard]

The easiest way to move large amounts of container cargo from planetside to orbit would be to use a specialized vehicle rather than a true spaceship.

This is a neat idea.

A ship moving large amounts of cargo between sectors might be an oddity. Costs of shipping are going to be high, so i don't think things like agrictultural products would move very far from where they are produced. But in general a bulk freighter is probably going to start around 20,000 tons or more. There is an example of a 100,000 ton ship in one of the books.

As for this... I had been coming to a similar conclusion. Unless the mineral/resource is extremely valuable shipping isn't going to make sense. Goods would be manufactured where the closest resources are, and shipped as needed.

I think I'll move the scenario to a mining colony in an asteroid belt or moon (mmmm Outland!)

 

[phavoc]

As for this... I had been coming to a similar conclusion. Unless the mineral/resource is extremely valuable shipping isn't going to make sense. Goods would be manufactured where the closest resources are, and shipped as needed.

I think I'll move the scenario to a mining colony in an asteroid belt or moon (mmmm Outland!)

If you moved it to a star system with multiple planets you would have more opportunities for adventures for your players. You could include the belt, sending them out on a job to different places within the system, maybe even having them jump to the outermost planet (like a gas giant) so that they still require a jump-capable ship. It would take longer if they did it just on thrusters. As long as its far enough out. You can consult some tables and calculate distances and travel times.