Building a construction. Need help!

[gran_orco]

A did a question a long time ago about the construction table in Arms & Equipment. It was not clear enough, and I think we should have an official answer, so I repeat it:

Construction:

Let's take House, Simple
Man Hours = 1d6 x2 per square meter; Cost per Man Hour = 5 CP per 8 man hours

House:
Let's build a 9m x 9m house. This is 81 square meters

Roll 1d6 x 2: Result (3) x 2 = 6

Total Man Hours = 6 (the roll) * 81 (square meters) = 486 Man Hours

Cost Per Man Hour for Simple House:
5 CP per 8 Man Hours

Total Cost
486 man hours/8 = 60.75 * 5 CP = 303.75 CP = 30 SP


So you can build a 9x9 simple house in under a day for about the price of a dagger, or almost the price of a spade! (25 SP). Everything seems a bit low in all the calculations, but that seems to be the way it is supposed to be.

Loz, Pete, could you tell me if I am doing anything wrong, please?

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

When you say that you can build this house in under a day - there's 486 man hours involved. So if you have a working day of 10 hours, you'll only get it done if you have 49 people working on it.

Assuming that the time involved is only for actually raising the building* that doesn't seen entirely unreasonable - think of the barn-raising scene in "Witness".

* The cost is specified in the book to include materials as well as labour, but I think it's reasonable to take the view that the time factor assumes that the materials are already prepared and to hand.

 

[andyl]

I don't think the cost is that far out either.

Simple buildings are pretty cheap. Certainly in less developed societies stuff like good daggers and spades were significantly more valuable.

Remember these are likely to be either pure wood, wattle and daub, or maybe cob, built houses. If you are not in the cities then it will be a case of your community coming together to help you build.

 

[jarulf]

So if you have a working day of 10 hours, you'll only get it done if you have 49 people working on it.

This also raises another question, isn't having 49 persons building a small house a bit excessive, even if they do it in two shifts (assuming there is enough light)?
I've never built one, so I wouldn't know

Maybe there should be a max (and min) size work crew entry for each building type.

 

[andyl]

So if you have a working day of 10 hours, you'll only get it done if you have 49 people working on it.

This also raises another question, isn't having 49 persons building a small house a bit excessive, even if they do it in two shifts (assuming there is enough light)?
I've never built one, so I wouldn't know

Maybe there should be a max (and min) size work crew entry for each building type.

There is nothing in the book that says it has to be done in one day. That was introduced by gran_orco. I would have though a team of 8 to 10 taking 4 to 6 days would be more realistic.

 

[jarulf]

There is nothing in the book that says it has to be done in one day.

Of course not, nor anything that prevents it I think (I haven't looked at the rules recently). I just thought having a max number of persons working on a building might make sense. Too many and they get in the way of each other. With a max crew size, you'd also get a min number of hours it would take.

Though how to calculate help from giants and dinosaur lift cranes would probably be a bit much detail

I'd probably just handwave how many workers were available for hire and take it from there.

 

[andyl]

There is nothing in the book that says it has to be done in one day.

Of course not, nor anything that prevents it I think (I haven't looked at the rules recently). I just thought having a max number of persons working on a building might make sense. Too many and they get in the way of each other. With a max crew size, you'd also get a min number of hours it would take.

Well they probably thought that people would be sensible. Who is going to say right I've got 4900 people to help so my house will be ready in under 6 minutes - right?

Actually hiring big crews may be more problem than it is worth. You have to hire foremen (at extra cost) there may be various rivalries between different workers etc. Let alone finding all those unemployed workers.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Actually hiring big crews may be more problem than it is worth. You have to hire foremen (at extra cost) there may be various rivalries between different workers etc. Let alone finding all those unemployed workers.

The rules don't take into account unusual economic factors going on in the environment - and someone trying to hire every able body in the city for a few hours is an unusual economic factor that inevitably throws off the calculations in the rules!

Also, it doesn't take into account the party member who has Form/Set and Animate Stone, and the other one that has Dominate Bricklayer.

 

[gran_orco]

When you say that you can build this house in under a day - there's 486 man hours involved. So if you have a working day of 10 hours, you'll only get it done if you have 49 people working on it.

Assuming that the time involved is only for actually raising the building* that doesn't seen entirely unreasonable - think of the barn-raising scene in "Witness".

* The cost is specified in the book to include materials as well as labour, but I think it's reasonable to take the view that the time factor assumes that the materials are already prepared and to hand.

I will give you another exemple: A Mansion with 200 square metres
(5) x 2 x 200 = 2000 average man hours. Cost per man hour 1 SP per 10 man hours. The rules specify "Cost per man hour: How much the construction costs to build, including labour and materials"
So, which should be the final cost, according to you? How must I calculate it? 200 SP for a 200 square metres mansion is a plum! I am sure that there is something wrong in the book, or not explained correctly -or I am doing something wrong-.
The table is not easy to understand

 

[Loz]

That's a very small mansion, Gran.

A decent town house with grounds is closer to 2000 sq. metres. A mansion would be 10 or even 20 times this size.

 

[jarulf]

Well they probably thought that people would be sensible. Who is going to say right I've got 4900 people to help so my house will be ready in under 6 minutes - right?

Common sense should hopefully always prevail.

My only point, and it is a very minor one at that, is that a few suggestions on how many workers could reasonably work on a project might be handy. That said, I don't see the lack of this in the rules as a problem in anyway.

 

[gran_orco]

That's a very small mansion, Gran.

A decent town house with grounds is closer to 2000 sq. metres. A mansion would be 10 or even 20 times this size.

You are right, but... The Donald Trump Palace -Mansion de l'Amitié- has 7432 square metres, and it is the fourth palace most expensive in the world and one of the largest... Some roman palaces, like Venecia or Doria Pamphili, has 13000 square metres, no more, and they are one of the largest.

Ok, so I will recalculate it with the cathedral of Cologne, Germany, with 7000 square metres, or the cathredal of Mallorca, with 6000, and I will triplicate it. Although it has 7000 square metres, I will suppose that I want a cathredal of 21000 square metres :!: : (5) x 3 x 21000= 315000 / 8 = 39375 SP :roll:
But the cathredal of Cologne would cost 13000-16000 SP with these rules

This tower has 1417 square metres. 2D4 (4) x 2 x 1417 / 8 = 1417 SP

However, the cost for a Galleon is 350000 SP, a Brigantine 50000, and a Small Trader 20000. So, if this rule was intended I think that it is not adjusted. This is why I thought that I was doing something wrong. But, despite this, am I doing calculations correctly?

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

That's a very small mansion, Gran.

A decent town house with grounds is closer to 2000 sq. metres. A mansion would be 10 or even 20 times this size.

You are right, but... The Donald Trump Palace -Mansion de l'Amitié- has 7432 square metres, and it is the fourth palace most expensive in the world and one of the largest... Some roman palaces, like Venecia or Doria Pamphili, has 13000 square metres, no more, and they are one of the largest.

Ok, so I will recalculate it with the cathedral of Cologne, Germany, with 7000 square metres, or the cathredal of Mallorca, with 6000, and I will triplicate it. Although it has 7000 square metres, I will suppose that I want a cathredal of 21000 square metres :!: : (5) x 3 x 21000= 315000 / 8 = 39375 SP :roll:
But the cathredal of Cologne would cost 13000-16000 SP with these rules

This tower has 1417 square metres. 2D4 (4) x 2 x 1417 / 8 = 1417 SP

However, the cost for a Galleon is 350000 SP, a Brigantine 50000, and a Small Trader 20000. So, if this rule was intended I think that it is not adjusted. This is why I thought that I was doing something wrong. But, despite this, am I doing calculations correctly?

Well, the cost for a galleon appears to be for a fully fitted out ship - including sail/cordage and (according to the description on p63 of A&E) 56 cannon.

On the other hand, the cost for constructing buildings seems to me to give you a mere shell - note that there is an additional cost listed for (wooden) partition walls. It certainly doesn't include decorations/furnishings etc.

In addition - and here I agree the book could be clearer - I assume the the square metreage has to be calculated per storey. Clearly it has to cost more to build a three-storey house than a single storey one.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Ok, so I will recalculate it with the cathedral of Cologne, Germany, with 7000 square metres, or the cathredal of Mallorca, with 6000, and I will triplicate it. Although it has 7000 square metres, I will suppose that I want a cathredal of 21000 square metres :!: : (5) x 3 x 21000= 315000 / 8 = 39375 SP :roll:
But the cathredal of Cologne would cost 13000-16000 SP with these rules

Working on a Cathedral might be a good point of reference - it may be possible to get estimates for the cost and effort in building the original for comparison...

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Well, the cost for a galleon appears to be for a fully fitted out ship - including sail/cordage and (according to the description on p63 of A&E) 56 cannon.

On the other hand, the cost for constructing buildings seems to me to give you a mere shell - note that there is an additional cost listed for (wooden) partition walls. It certainly doesn't include decorations/furnishings etc.

There is definitely going to be a big difference between building (say) a 200 sq metre church and a 200 sq metre barn...

 

[andyl]

Ok, so I will recalculate it with the cathedral of Cologne, Germany, with 7000 square metres, or the cathredal of Mallorca, with 6000, and I will triplicate it. Although it has 7000 square metres, I will suppose that I want a cathredal of 21000 square metres :!: : (5) x 3 x 21000= 315000 / 8 = 39375 SP :roll:
But the cathredal of Cologne would cost 13000-16000 SP with these rules

Working on a Cathedral might be a good point of reference - it may be possible to get estimates for the cost and effort in building the original for comparison...

Sure but a Cathedral would get a large additional civic building cost (maybe 3 or 4 SP per square metre).

I think that high gothic like Cologne isn't what we should be comparing to. I think we should look more to the castles built in Britain by Edward I. There is good documentation detailing cost and number of men.

For example Beaumaris Castle in Anglesey. It was worked on for 35 years and cost 1500 pounds. At the peak 3500 or so people were working on it. See wikipedia for more details. It is possible to find out what cheap labourers were paid as well as master masons and everything in between and apply that to game currency terms. However for me (and my players) that is just too much detail and accounting.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

Well, the cost for a galleon appears to be for a fully fitted out ship - including sail/cordage and (according to the description on p63 of A&E) 56 cannon.

On the other hand, the cost for constructing buildings seems to me to give you a mere shell - note that there is an additional cost listed for (wooden) partition walls. It certainly doesn't include decorations/furnishings etc.

There is definitely going to be a big difference between building (say) a 200 sq metre church and a 200 sq metre barn...

Of course. And A&E has separate costs for various types of building, though neither "barn" nor "cathedral" are listed as such.

If you use "wooden shack" for barn then a 200 sq m barn will take (on average) 6 x 200 = 1200 man hours at a cost of 5 cp per 10 man hours so 5 x 120 = 600 cp (60 sp).

On the other hand then a 200 sq m temple will take 15 x 200 + 3000 man hours at 1 sp per 8 man hours = 375 sp.

 

[Loz]

So, let's say Sir Gran's building a nice house of around 2,000 sq metres; say a small manor house. I'll assume Gran's generous lord has donated him a 10 acre lot for his service in the infamous Guild Wars, rent free, in perpetuity.

The average man hours needed for Gran Manor is 1D10 x2 per square metre. Taking the average of 5.5 (1D10) x2 = 11 man hours per square metre. This means a total of 11 x 2000 = 22,000 hours. It would therefore cost, unfurnished, 22,000 silvers to build and would take a team of 10 men 2,200 hours to complete - around 26 weeks, or 6 months (if you're generous and assume a 7 day working week of 12 hours a day; bloody hell, that Sir Gran - he's a slave driver!).

I don't think this is so outrageous. Remember a few things about property and prices:

1. Property itself isn't necessarily expensive to build and with a team of professionals it goes up relatively quickly, assuming materials are available and weather isn't against you.

2. This covers just the building. The land cost will add to this, and often land is rented or leased rather than bought outright. You need to factor in a land cost too.

3. Location is everything. A townhouse in a large city will cost more to build than a mansion out in the sticks. Conversely, a mansion surrounded by pleasant meadows and a babbling brook will fetch more than one with scrappy lands on a windswept moor.

4. Property always appreciates if looked-after. Running costs are always expensive. You can build a decent sized property quickly and cheaply but keeping it decent will cost you time and money.

5. Most property developers will tell you that its frequently cheaper to build something new than renovate something old.

 

[gran_orco]

Loz, we are not debating about the time, but the price, and now I know that we must take extra expenditures . But, as the table was indicating "including labours and materials", maybe it could be orientated to a final cost of the building, including rest, holidays and a 10 hours labor time per day. If the table shows that my small manor house needs 22000 hours to finish, I thought that it was supposed to be that. I am not a slave driver!. But, with your explanation, it is obvious to me that I need to add more money (so the table is only of orientative, indirect use).
According to Bryan: "There is a drastic price difference, perhaps it is a bit too high; but I did not work on the Companion - so those numbers would have been a little closer if I was consulted.
What I would do is either charge more for the skilled labour (maybe about half-again) or reduce the cost of the home by about 25%."

So, thank you all, we will do what you say. The most important is that we were doing calculations correctly, that was our principal doubt.