Broken New Ramming Speed! Rules

[Chandler]

The other night at my local club I played a 6 point Raid action against a friend, my Minbari against his Draazi.

I hadn't experienced the new ramming rules until he used 2 patrol level ships to ram my battle level Morshin carrier, which was completely unharmed up to this point.

The first partol level ship rammed the Morshin and crippled it! the second destroyed it! How are these changes to the ramming rules allowed when they are obviously completely broken? It was ok before when you could only ram with a crippled ship and when you had to make a crew quality check, but am I the only one that thinks that this change to the rules is:

a) unrequired?
b) broken?

I'm just really annoyed that anyone could buy a armada of tiny patrol level ships, the price of one being worth only 1/8 of a battle level ship, and use it to cripple a battle level ship!

Also why don't you have to make a stealth role against minbari, shadows and psi-corps in order to see the ship which you have to ram? If you can't see a ship to shoot at it then you can hardly know where it is to ram it!

 

[H]

um, you don't have to be crippled anymore?! mmm where are my rules. . .

ok from my PDF copy of the rules. . .

Give Me Ramming Speed!
Crew Quality Check: 9
Effect: If a ship is Crippled, its Captain may decide to make the ultimate sacrifi ce and order a course that heads straight
for an enemy vessel. A Crew Quality check must be made – it takes tremendous strength of will to not only make the
ultimate sacrifi ce but to also convince your crew to do the same. The ship may add 50% to its current Speed but can only
turn once.
If it contacts an enemy ship, you may try to ram it. Only one enemy ship can be targeted in this way. Both ships must make
an opposed Crew Quality check. Ships with the Lumbering trait suffer a –1 penalty to this roll while ships with the Agile
trait gain a +1 bonus. If the enemy ship passes, it avoids being rammed and your ship must continue its move, to its full
extent. If the you succeed or draw, your ship has successfully made a ram.
If you ram the enemy, both ships suffer an attack using as many Attack Dice as half the opposing ship’s starting
Damage points, with the Super AP and Triple Damage traits. Dodge, Interceptors and Stealth traits do not
apply to ramming attacks. All other traits do apply as normal.


I highlighted the key bit in bold.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Where's the change to being able to ram with an uncrippled ship and without making a CQ check? Have I missed a rules supplement release or something?

 

[Greg Smith]

This is a rules change for P&P that is being playtested. And it certainly hasn't been finalised yet.

 

[H]

well um, we were unaware that Chandler was a playtester. but um, if you can ram for the hell of it, I agree, it's broken!

 

[Chandler]

Apologies for treading on toes i'm not a playtester but I tried the proposed rules with a friend and thought they were new rules, I didn't realise they were only proposed changes and should have asked people what they thought of the proposal. But I have played these rules and hope that they are not used in the future.

 

[H]

well if your friend is a playtester, he should probably let you know whats a playtest rule so you don't slip up with something don't worry about it simple enough mistake.

apparantly, allegedly, a lot of these new rules are supposed to appear in S+P for mass consultation, so you have fired the first shot for the mortal man!

 

[CZuschlag]

I can't believe such a rule is being seriously considered. It's spectacularly stupid. It blows me away that you need to playtest such a thing to figure out if it was broken or not.

Gott in Himmel.

 

[Triggy]

Ramming without being Crippled (or at least Skeleton Crewed) really goes against the flavour of the show, not to mention is open to spectacular abuse with ramming fleets!

At least if it's rare, even if it is still really powerful then it will not be seen often (and fits in with the show).

 

[Greg Smith]

well if your friend is a playtester, he should probably let you know whats a playtest rule so you don't slip up with something

That would be my fault for not making it absolutely clear.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I can understand playing around with the idea of lifting the crippled restriction, but I'm pretty sure any crew would have hesitations about deliberately killing themselves.
If the crippled restriction is lifted, I would play around with the idea of giving a further penalty to the CQ check if the ship is uncrippled. It's one thing to persuade a crew to commit suicide when they're about to die anyway, but a lot harder when they're on a currently perfectly servicable vessel.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I always thought the biggest issue with Ramming was that it was so much easier to do it with failed skin dancing attempts? I never really had a problem with ramming, per say, just it seemed kinda silly when white stars were these perfect instruments of suicidal destruction.

 

[Tolwyn]

Mhm, the rules sounds indeed stupid. I just see swarms of Patrol ships each ramming the opponents ships. No, this rules should not be used.

For special scenarios like the Battle of the Line there could be some optional rules, but not for the casual game.

 

[Target]

The only time a rule like that should be used is EA vs Minbari campaign.

 

[AdrianH]

I agree with nekomata fuyu - remove the absolute requirement that the ramming ship be crippled, but impose a penalty on the CQ check if it is neither crippled nor skeleton crew.

And then there are the Shadows, whose ships can never be crippled or skeleton crew, yet we see a Scout ram a White Star in "Shadow Dancing". So Shadows ought to be allowed the ramming action, but allowing the big ships to ram would be open to massive abuse; they could ram, survive, heal themselves, then do it again. I'd suggest only allowing the Scout to ram. Similarly if the Vorlons are allowed to ram then it's only the Transport.

 

[Burger]

I agree with nekomata fuyu - remove the absolute requirement that the ramming ship be crippled, but impose a penalty on the CQ check if it is neither crippled nor skeleton crew.

It already needs a 10, then an opposed! How many more CQ checks can there be?

Leave it as requiring crippled. It fits the show and makes it rare enough in the game to be interesting.

 

[Locutus9956]

I can understand the reasoning for the proposed rule change namely that ramming as it stands currently is nigh on impossible to do ever (though its not QUITE as bad as it originally was).

However these proposed changes are way way over the top.

Personally I'd suggest a sort of compromise.

1) Leave it so that only crippled ships can attempt to ram.

2) Excempt it from the usual 'no special orders while skeleton crewed' restriction (that for me is the biggest problem in that its generally a fairly small gap where ships can end up crippled but still able to attempt a special order!) In fact this change alone might actually be enough but personally I'd like to see the next one as well.

3) either remove or lower ALOT the CQ required to start the ram attempt in the first place. You still have to make an opposed roll to actually hit the enemy.

Basically a crippled ship should be able to ram without TOO much difficulty but it shouldnt be automatic by any means!

Lastly. Nerf the effect on the target ship for a failed skin dancing attempt dramtically (have them clip or something and the skin dancer move as adrift the next turn or something whilst both ships take minor damage rather than it being a 'free ram')

 

[Locutus9956]

It fits the show and makes it rare enough in the game to be interesting.

Thats the thing though it's NOT rare in the show when you think about it, is it? Seriously almost every time in the show we see a ship get 'crippled' it rams (or at least starts to ram only to have it's target blown out of it's path) except when it's totally crippled beyond having any engine capability or if theres a special plot twist like sheridan nuking the black star.

Cases in point:

Sinclairs starfury, crippled by minbari, solution? 'Set full velocity ram'

EAS Churchill, crippled by Clarks forces, solution? RAM!!!!

EAS Agamemmnon - All power to engines, give me ramming speed.

Shadow Scout in 'Into the Fire' crippled by Whitestar, solution? Ram!

Narn fighters vs shadow fighters, ok so not crippled but cant escape, RAM!!!

I'm sure theres more examples but I cant think of them off the top of my head but if anyone can think of further times in the show when a ship was crippled and DIDNT ram then I'd love to hear it!

 

[H]

oh please, leave out the it fits the show crap would you. Boresighted whitestars fit the show but we all know how that goes. The argument is only used when someone wants to justify something, then ignored when they want something else.

 

[Locutus9956]

oh please, leave out the it fits the show crap would you. Boresighted whitestars fit the show but we all know how that goes. The argument is only used when someone wants to justify something, then ignored when they want something else.

Was that comment aimed at me or Burger Hiff? I sort of agree with you but to be honest I do think the game should at least TRY and fit the show (I just happen to think ramming being extremely rare doesnt do so!)