Breaking Stealth in 2e

[WereRogue]

Please help clear up some confusion.

In the 2e rulebook, under stealth, it says (in part) "An additional -1 penalty is applied if any other ship in the same fleet has successfully attacked the target in the same turn . . . ." (emphasis mine).

A friend of mine asserts that catching a Stealthed ship in the explosion radius of an E-Mine counts as an attack, and thus lowers the ships stealth.

I maintain that unless he targetted the ship with the E-Mine that, essentially, he is making an attack in an empty area of space, and not on the ship in question.

Who's correct?

Additionally, we tend to play a lot of mixed team games (EA, Narn vs. Minbari, ISA, or something similar). The wording of the rule says "ship in the same fleet", but does that extend to "friendly" ships that are not in the same fleet? What about an ISA fleet that uses League Ships?

Thanks!

-Ken

 

[H]

I would suggest no on the mine, as that ship has not sucessfully "targeted" a stealthed ship, of course there are definately rulesmongers out there who would argue otherwise, as for same fleet, if you are on the same side, I would suggest you are sharing targeting solutions and it should confer the -1. of course both are just opinions. You may wish to stick this on rulesmasters

**edit** just got thinking though.... you could target the impact blast of the e-mines on the stealthed ship... kinde like startrek attempts to shoot cloaked klingons...hmmmm

 

[WereRogue]

You may wish to stick this on rulesmasters

Done. I'll post the answer here when it comes down.

-Ken

 

[Triggy]

In addition to that question you may want to add "does the attack have to cause any damage/have a successful AD roll or is beating the Stealth score sufficient"?

 

[Winged_Human]

Good Question Triggy,
I am the player with which Wererogue has had this question posed to. As I read the 2e rules I was under the understanding that a successful Attack does damage, AKA a Direct Hit. And since the rules state that any sucessfull attack (read Direct hit) infers a -1 penalty to stealth for the rest of the turn an E-mine that does damage should infer the -1 penalty on any ship that has suffered damage.

Now seeing as how The only ships listed in the back of the Core rulebook that would benefit from E-mines reducing stealth are the G'Quans (if I remember correctly) I don't think this would be that big of a deal. But would greatly like this matter to be cleared up before the fleet lists come out as it will impact on my fleet ship choices.

 

[katadder]

which also means a fighter attack counts as breaking stealth thing due to them counting as ships now. which is far better than 1es scanners to full. this dont look so good for the minbari.

 

[Niemand]

It was my belief that e-mines attack a spot in space, not a ship (Unless it was a shipbuster). Though, admittedly, I have not gotten to even glimpse the 2nd edition rules...

 

[katadder]

which is why i would say no to e-mines counting for the bonus as it doesnt attack the ship directly

 

[Winged_Human]

If I shoot an E-mine into an area of space because I know there's 3 minbari cruisers there, even though my scanners can't lock on... is that not Attacking the ships?

 

[katadder]

no its attacking space, the ships just get caught in the blast.

 

[super squirel]

If I shoot an E-mine into an area of space because I know there's 3 minbari cruisers there, even though my scanners can't lock on... is that not Attacking the ships?

I would say it's attacking an area of space.

I always look at it as this:

For a ship to be attacked, you have to target it. If you target a ship, then you have to pass it's stealth. If you target a point in space, the the ship has not had it's stealth beaten and therefore you don;t get the modifier.

 

[katadder]

the alternative is to use the e-mine description. every ship within 3" is attacked by the e-mine. therefore the e-mine breaks stealth, but its no longer on the board so you cannot get the bonus.

 

[Tzarevitch]

It was my belief that e-mines attack a spot in space, not a ship (Unless it was a shipbuster). Though, admittedly, I have not gotten to even glimpse the 2nd edition rules...

E-Mines target a point in space, they attack (i.e. roll their attack dice against) everything within the blast radius. So, assuming the quoted text is accurate then yes e-mines should impose the penalty on a stealth ship (although really only if they cause damage). Honestly it makes sci-fi sense and there is sci-fi precedent in Star Trek VI when Excelcior and Enterprise lock on to the impact of photon torpedoes against the hull of the cloaked Klingon ship.

Tzarevitch

 

[Winged_Human]

I always look at it as this:

For a ship to be attacked, you have to target it. If you target a ship, then you have to pass it's stealth. If you target a point in space, the the ship has not had it's stealth beaten and therefore you don;t get the modifier.

Blargh... apparently there is no Narn love on the boards...

I conceede this arguement. though I don't agree with it, I will accept the ruling as a majority rules. I guess I shold just be happy that I don't have to roll for dodge or stealth with the E-mines. Though I hope that the fleet book carries more ships equipped with these weapons. they do great tactically.

 

[Da Boss]

Two interesting opposing opinions - be equally ineresting to see Rulemastes ruling?

 

[Winged_Human]

Agreed Da Boss.

I may win this one yet....

 

[super squirel]

I always look at it as this:

For a ship to be attacked, you have to target it. If you target a ship, then you have to pass it's stealth. If you target a point in space, the the ship has not had it's stealth beaten and therefore you don;t get the modifier.

Blargh... apparently there is no Narn love on the boards...

I conceede this arguement. though I don't agree with it, I will accept the ruling as a majority rules. I guess I shold just be happy that I don't have to roll for dodge or stealth with the E-mines. Though I hope that the fleet book carries more ships equipped with these weapons. they do great tactically.

Don't worry, I like the Narns, not sure about love though. it's just thats how I see the rules. I would like to see it count as attacking the ship as it would make sense in the sense of sci-fi ala Star Trek style

 

[Da Boss]

Narns - Hate 'em

Hmm depends if the idea is "target that explosion and fire" if so than a energy mine hit (or fighter shot) should work.

On fighters - it does say - A Fighter is treated as a ship for all purposes, unless mentioned below and it does not say anything about a fighter not counting as a ship for firing.

Guess its a good job that Minbari have masses of Advanced Antifighter and deadily fighters.

 

[zulu01]

So, if just one fighter makes it through the anti-fighter defenses of the Mnbari ship and attacks, then all other sjips will enjoy a -1 modifier to break that ship's stealth for the rest of the turn?

 

[Da Boss]

well thats what the rules seem to say - just as if a Haven (1/2 patrol) pt broke the stealth and managed to score a hit - also both have to survive for the -1 mod to last - soon as they die - its gone..........