Blacks & Women?

[René]

Since we all know that CONAN / REH includes racism & sexism, I often wondered, how many black people and how many women play this wonderful RPG.

I'm fairly sure, if I'd be black, I wouldn't give it even a try after reading some stories where blacks are protrayed in the typical REH way. Please don't misunderstand me: I don't want to hear your opinion about REHs / CONANs racism and sexism, just tell me, if you know of black or female (or both) CONAN gamers.

Being just curious...

All the CONAN players I know in Germany are male and white.

 

[Greymane]

As of this writing I have three female players in my group, two that have played a variety of RPG's and one fresh off the boat newbie to dice rolling and role playing...

None have expressed distaste with the setting, but then again, I'm not playing up the sexist stuff too much at the moment as they are notin an urban setting at the moment...

 

[Sutek]

In a bizzare way, I knida think that presuming that women and blacks would have some problem with it is biased. Why should they be?

Now, seriously, why? This is a fantasy world (first point) created by a man who had certain personal misconceptions obout race and gender based on the time in which he lived coupled with the region of the world in which he lived. In a way, his views were not even racist so much as a reflection of his time and place. In his time, too, women were generally passive and deferent to men and non-caucasian people were less technologically inclined and usually tribal. His depiction of the Picts is a mesh of the ferocious Picts of European history married to the ferocious nature of the Plains Indians of North America, at least in any Cowboy & Indian story he'was ever likely to have read.

On the flipside, Hyboria is written as a racist world, and perhaps intentionally. Aquilonians have those that they hate or distrust, as do Zingarans, Cimmerians and Nordheimers. As a matter of fact, Conan must learn to accept people different to him in many cases, understanding them and accepting them as allies regardless of thier race, and this may be an underlying message too. I mean, I don't know that REH intended to be all that that thought provoking or anything, but he also could have been more blatantly racist too.

As a role player, it also presents a different challenge to play a race that is not generally accepted in the greater world. To be a Black Kingdoms tribesman in Nordhiem would be akin to seeming to be a magical creature. ("His skin is so dark! Was he burned alive or cursed by dark demons?") Proving a comonality in spite of race could be an interesting theme to play out in a campaign.

I don't think anyone should look at these things as racist or sexist ona simpler level though. It's fantasy - anything is possible including a Cimmerian King of Aquilonia...

 

[Bregales]

I agree with Sutek. If you watch the movie "The Whole Wide World" starring Vincent D'Onofrio (as Robert Howard) and Rene Zellwiger (as Miss Novalyne Price - the woman who wrote the memoir One Who Walked Alone (Novalyne Price Ellis), Howard tells Miss Price that his ideal woman would be adventurous and active (referring to the story he paints about pioneers), but she responds that women (she) just aren't like that.

Most forms of literary criticism base the time period and setting in which the author wrote as influencing the author's writing/themes/styles, etc. The very theory of evolution (that the world wasn't only 5,000 years old) was fairly new, and most people still held the strict bible-interpretation challenged under the Scopes Monkey Trial ("Inherit the Wind"), so while we may think of the two Catyclisms shaping and then destroying the world of Kull & Hyborian World and destroying them to make the modern world may seem rushed to us, they were fairly new ideas in Howard's time.

As for racism/sexism, considering the possible inspirations of Howard (Lord Dunsanny (sp?), Edgar Rice Burroughs - consider the Tarzan stories and the John Carter: Warlord of Mars stories by comparison), helps further. And he's writing about a time approximately 10,000 years before the rise of Egypt (more or less), so he's writing about a much earlier era there too. As for the racism between the nations in the Hyborian setting, yeah I think it was definitely intentional. Was the author racist, I don't think so (deliberately) off-hand, given what little is revealed in the movie/memoir referenced above. But does it matter that much? I don't think so either. He's been dead almost 70 years now, and the game based on his stories has taken off in a whole new direction. So while I think Rene's question is valid (from curiositie's sake), I don't think people need to get upset or defensive about the various ramifications.

 

[Hudson]

In response to the original post, I have three women who are players in my Conan campaign. One is a Turanian nomad, one is a Zamoran thief and my wife is a Kushite thief who poses as a witch woman. They all bring serious hurt to any foes that lie in their way and they have taken up "wenching" as well. I guess I need a better name as they (alas) only pick up men! Menching? Any suggestions?

 

[Sir Hackalot]

I have actaully ran games for an all female group of role-players and have found that they have more of a tendency to overly agressive sexually than male players. They can also be just as violent and evil as any male even moreso in some cases.

 

[urdinaran]

Though I have on occasion played and GMed games with female players, they tend to be rare. As for Conan, I see these numbers being even smaller; Not just because of the nature of the Hyborian world as REH described it, but also because you can't play an Elven Princess or have a Unicorn as a mount.

 

[Sutek]

I ran a game of D&D with a 3:1 ration of women to men. When faced with a moral dilema as to how to deal with a spy that they'd caught, the guy said tie him up and bring him with us as long as we can while the women all agreed that slitting his throat and dropping him down a 100' shaft to where a massive spider had it's lair seemed more befitting. When I suggested, as GM, that their approach might be a bit...callous...they aggree that slitting his throat was, indeed, slightly over the top...

Ruthless scary-ass chicks!!! :shock:

Me an the male player just glanced at one another wide eyed at the blood thirst and wickedness that our fellow females were willing to unleash.

 

[Yig]

Since we all know that CONAN / REH includes racism & sexism, I often wondered, how many black people and how many women play this wonderful RPG.

I'm fairly sure, if I'd be black, I wouldn't give it even a try after reading some stories where blacks are protrayed in the typical REH way. Please don't misunderstand me: I don't want to hear your opinion about REHs / CONANs racism and sexism, just tell me, if you know of black or female (or both) CONAN gamers.

Being just curious...

All the CONAN players I know in Germany are male and white.

I struggle with the racism and sexism in REH writing, too. I'm neither black, nor female, but that doesn't mean I'm not bothered by racism or sexism. REH is certainly a product of both his narrow view of the world and wrong-headed, Eurocentric ideas about race and linear, evolutionary social development. I don't think that because it's fantasy the racism and sexism is dismissable, but I do think that, because it's a game, GMs can interpret the Hyborian Age represented in their campaign as they see fit. I pick and choose, myself. For instance, I generally portray racist Hyborian perspectives on other cultures (I avoid the term "race") as part of the decadence of Hyborian civilization, which contributes to its ultimate downfall. "Barbarians" in my games are not valorized, either (i.e., I don't call upon the "noble savage" trope). I do run with the REH's theme that violence is in man's nature, and that civilization has corrupting effects. "Savagery" in my games tends to come when NPCs forget what makes them human (e.g., honor, love, staying clear of Corruption, etc), whether they are from Cimmeria, Aquilonia, or the Southern Kingdoms (I do tend to drop the "Black" from that title).

Cheers to Rene for bringing up the topic, though. I do think it's important. And REH, like the Tolkien (also racist and ethnocentric), is still one of my favorite story-tellers.

BH (aka morc)

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Well there's me- female, but not black. Dark, but not black. I have one female player in the Conan game but since I already edit out the racism/sexism out of the game and she's not a REH reader, she's hasn't run into it at all. The rest of my players are white bread males I fear. There just aren't any black players I know of in this area or Asian or anything much other than WASP males I fear. I don't exactly live anywhere terribly diverse.

As for the female potential for cruelty and evil I think it's just on par with men's. You just don't expect it from us so it frightens you more. The double edge of stereotypes. :twisted:

 

[Koley Porter]

My game group over the last 10 years ago has maintained about an equal number of male and female players. We currently enjoy playing Conan and utilize Howard's stereotypes and ignore them on about an equal basis. this allows us to have the right feel for the world while conceeding that individuals within such a world transcend stereotypes. My wife is from Cross Plains, TX (home of Robert E. Howard) and loves his work, though she of course wishes he had stories that focused more on women of strength and fighting prowess.

 

[Sutek]

Well there's me- female, but not black. Dark, but not black. I have one female player in the Conan game but since I already edit out the racism/sexism out of the game and she's not a REH reader, she's hasn't run into it at all. The rest of my players are white bread males I fear. There just aren't any black players I know of in this area or Asian or anything much other than WASP males I fear. I don't exactly live anywhere terribly diverse.

As for the female potential for cruelty and evil I think it's just on par with men's. You just don't expect it from us so it frightens you more. The double edge of stereotypes. :twisted:

Like calling people "white breads" and "WASP"? Is that the sort of stereotype you mean, Rave?



Honestly, I dont'expect the "slit thier throat and toss em alive into a pit" mentality from anyone because it's pretty depraved. I'd also say that if you are tossingout the racism inhereent in the Hyborian world, I suppose everyone just gets along and Aquilonians dance in circles with Stygians. The racism is an integral part of the world - they are inseperable - but I suppose it could be downplayed in favor of just fighting creatures all the time.

:wink:

 

[Trodax]

As for the female potential for cruelty and evil I think it's just on par with men's.

I agree. We're all just (slightly) advanced apes.

I'd also say that if you are tossing out the racism inhereent in the Hyborian world, I suppose everyone just gets along and Aquilonians dance in circles with Stygians. The racism is an integral part of the world - they are inseperable - but I suppose it could be downplayed in favor of just fighting creatures all the time.

Well, you can use the racism/sexism in two ways.
You can portray the world as being racist/sexist, ie. Aquilonians hate Stygians, look down on the Blacks of the South and there are not equal opportunities for women.
Alternatively, you can portray the racism/sexism as actually be founded, ie. the Blacks are bloodthirsty savages at heart, women just don't have what it takes to be warriors etc. etc.
I would say that the second alternative is much less PC than the first.

 

[The King]

I wonder if these stories figured the true mind of R.E. Howard. Don't you forget that he wrote some stories with a woman as a hero (Agnes de Chastillon).

The same is true with Lovecraft but it seems many tend to forget that he also included degenerated white people in his tales (dunwich is a good example).

Both authors were laughting at the nature of man who believed he could control anything. Like Howard, Lovecraft wrote his stories in the 1910's-1920's at a time of a second industrial and technical revolution (inclusive of the medicine and the nuclear fields with the works of Pasteur and Einstein respectively) with a boom in the communications: radio, plane, cars, etc.
With all this knowledge men weren't able to prevent the first world war and its massive destruction) or the Wall Street crash.

The myth of Icarus is not about discovering the Truth (veritas) but about the limits of man who spells his own doom.

Thus the educated heroes of Lovecraft become insane when they realize that what they know is a drop of water among the ocean while the heroes of Howard survive in a corrupted and decadent world thanks to their sheer force.
Both condemn the outmost rationalization of what the world has become and their stories are thus a sort of satire of the "Roarings Twenties".

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Like calling people "white breads" and "WASP"? Is that the sort of stereotype you mean, Rave?

Yes, but I have never claimed purity in ideal Sutek. I am what I am- I make no apologies, on the other hand I don't commit violence or consciously discriminate or put such stereotypes in my work. I strive for a higher ideal in my art than is capable in life. One of my amatuer writing projects had a series of 'WASP' police officers in a favourable light- who are a demographic I'm not terribly fond of actually.

And considering WASP means White AngloSaxon Protestant- is it prejudice or just the description of a demographic?

Honestly, I dont'expect the "slit thier throat and toss em alive into a pit" mentality from anyone because it's pretty depraved.

Is it? They're just as dead any way you do it. Does it matter how they die? Guards, like soliders and mercenaries and anyone whose job is violence have to expect they might come to an unpleasant end. If they don't like that- don't take the pay. Become a street sweeper or poet.

And being ex-military and a world traveller trust me- once you step out from the lighted palaces of 'Western civilization' throat slitting and other such things can be a rather common thing.

also say that if you are tossingout the racism inhereent in the Hyborian world, I suppose everyone just gets along and Aquilonians dance in circles with Stygians. The racism is an integral part of the world - they are inseperable - but I suppose it could be downplayed in favor of just fighting creatures all the time.

That's politics- the Aquilonians and Stygians are both just rival powers. They hate each other because the other has power and land that the other wants. And in my campaign the Aquilonians are pretty bad too- like intolerant pre-Catholic Inquisition. There is racism/sexism in my game- but it's not portrayed in a favourable light or being done by people who have a clue. The party's about mixed racially as you can get and they get along 'cause they know it's them against a dangerous world.

And I have a lot of poltics/mystical/roleplaying in my games. I just think that all RP in the Hyborian world doesn't have to happen in a bar or brothel. There's a lot more to a world than that. If you want to get drunk and see naked women there are places RL to do that. Don't come to me looking for that.

But if you honestly need to have the graphic degradation of humanity in your games, go for it Sutek. It's a free world.....

 

[Thoth Aw C'mon]

...and wrong-headed, Eurocentric ideas about race and linear, evolutionary social development.
BH (aka morc)

Heh heh. Takes me back to my college years sitting in my Poly Sci class. I'd forgotten that there are people out there actually use phrases like that. Good to hear the classics are still being pulled out and dusted off now and again for effect.

 

[***BARON***]

the setting shouldn't be offensive to blacks or women... so long as you know what sort of tale you want to tell. In Conan... women can be powerful... sex can posses men and rule them. By the same token a warrior of the black kingdoms can be the scariest and strongest fighter around. What sort of image would you expect in the setting?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Location: New Orleans, LA

My condolences, BARON.

 

[Sutek]

And considering WASP means White AngloSaxon Protestant- is it prejudice or just the description of a demographic?

If it's a slang term, used in a derogatory fasion that refers to ethnicity, it is a racist. Prejudice and racism are mutually exclusive. There are some who believe that saying "ni**er" merely acts as a description of a demographic, but we all klnow that's a load of crap.

Honestly, I dont'expect the "slit thier throat and toss em alive into a pit" mentality from anyone because it's pretty depraved.

Is it? They're just as dead any way you do it. Does it matter how they die? Guards, like soliders and mercenaries and anyone whose job is violence have to expect they might come to an unpleasant end. If they don't like that- don't take the pay. Become a street sweeper or poet.

And being ex-military and a world traveller trust me- once you step out from the lighted palaces of 'Western civilization' throat slitting and other such things can be a rather common thing.

Erm...they could ahve taken him prisoner or left him bound and gagged somewhere. Why kill him at all? Sheesh...you just proved my point and didnt'even realize it!!!! (lol) It's depraved, barbaric and uncivilized to regarg "slit his throat"as the only option; "slit his throat" versus "slit his throat and toss him into the monster infested pit"doubly so! :lol:

That's politics- the Aquilonians and Stygians are both just rival powers. They hate each other because the other has power and land that the other wants.

No, because they are different races. You dont' choose a "nationality" in this game, you pick a race. Generally, people fear and distrust because of race, not because of politics. You can see someone's race, not thier politics. They may argue and disagree because of politics, but racism, being irrational anyway, will pit one group against another regardless of political similarities simply because one person looks, eats or worships differently to another.

The fact is, regardless of where REHs ideas stemmed from, the game is set in a woprld where racism is rampant, but the reasons why are maleable by both the GM and the players. You want to play it up because you want your Cimmerian to learn that Southern Tribesmen are people too? Super. You want to start a down-trodden female aquilonian into a ruthless she-warrior against all odds? Go for it. But by the same token, that Cimmerian could believe the Tribesman, and indeed all ethnicities new to him, are simply men like him from the start. That aquilonian could simply be from a overbearing family who keep her from reaching her potential, to be a geat warrior, regardless of gender.

...on the other hand I don't commit violence or consciously discriminate

The WASP and white-bread knocks and not withstanding (or being accidental), there are indirect means by which violence can be directed. Not picking, I just think that you've said the opposite in the past...reach out and touch someone lately? (hehe) :wink:

 

[taylor]

Is it? They're just as dead any way you do it. Does it matter how they die? Guards, like soliders and mercenaries and anyone whose job is violence have to expect they might come to an unpleasant end. If they don't like that- don't take the pay. Become a street sweeper or poet.

I'm a soldier and whilst you accept the risks of your job, murder is murder, even in wartime.

And being ex-military and a world traveller trust me- once you step out from the lighted palaces of 'Western civilization' throat slitting and other such things can be a rather common thing.

If you were a soldier, you should know all about LOAC, unless the US army doesn't teach it to soldiers in non combat corps?

But if you honestly need to have the graphic degradation of humanity in your games, go for it Sutek. It's a free world.....

Yes, your characters can slaughter hundreds of inept lvl 1 NPCs, but you musn't be sexist or racist. :roll: I think both are wrong philosophically, but they add a tremendous lack of realism into REH's world that most other writers lack the guts to attain.