Belit, she's a crazy wench

[Demetrio]

He saves Balthus from the Picts (he could have saved himself some trouble by not so doing).

He's loyal to Murilo (again acting without any compulsion save his own moral code).

He gets himself in a legal bind through not testifying against his unnamed friend at the start of tQotBC.

I grant you that's not a great number. But I can't find an example of Conan not going out of his way to help or stand by a friend in distress. Allies of necessity or convenience are rather different of course.

 

[VincentDarlage]

And yeah I agree with you again, Conan is a total gentleman when it comes to women. And that really keeps me at a loss.

I don't know about that. In "Xuthal of the Dusk" (The Slithering Shadow), Conan "acquired" the slave-girl Natala. Sounds to me like she was a bit of loot. In Frost-Giant's Daughter, maybe he was ensorcelled, maybe not, but he seemed pretty intent on ravishing that girl. He does have a "rude chivalry" but he's hardly a total gentleman. In The Man-Eaters of Zamboula (Shadows in Zamboula) he expects sex as a reward, but when he realized who she was, he robbed her instead. In Rogues in the House, he dropped a girl into a cesspool. In the Servants of Bit-Yakin (Jewels of Gwahlur) he strips the clothes of a girl rather unceremoniously.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I wondered if he meant melancholies in a more poetic way, like 'lots of bad things happen to him'. I think the depressive sense kind of fits more given its coupling with 'gigantic mirths' but again, it could merely mean that he was given to brooding rather than a depressive as such.

Here is the section from the Phoenix on the Sword draft:

His mirth fell away from him like a mask, and his face was suddenly old, his eyes worn. The unreasoning melancholy of the Cimmerian fell like a shroud about his soul, paralyzing him witha crushing sense of the futilty of human endeavor and the meaninglessness of life. His kingship, his pleasures, his fears, his ambitions, and all earthly things were revealed to him suddenly as dust and broken toys. The borders of life shrivelled and the lines of existence closed in about him, numbing him. Dropping his lion head in his mighty hands, he groaned aloud.

Then, lifting his head, as a man looks for escape, his eyes fell on a crystal jar of yellow wine. Quickly he rose and pouring a goblet full, quaffed it at a gulp. Again he filled and emptied the goblet, and again. When he set it down, a fine warmth stole through his veins. Things and happenings assumed new values. The dark Cimmerian hills faded far behind him. Life was good and real and vibrant after all - not the dream of an idiot god.

 

[Jacek]

Potential Spoiler Disclaimer for the OP

There is another story, the name of which escapes me, where Conan is the leader of a tribe of black warriors. He effectively throws the tribe and allies over for the opportunity to save/take a white woman. (It's one of the green stone city stories if memory serves...)

"The Valley of the Lost Women", he saved her rather than took for himself. The plan was to return her to "civilization".

When I read that story, however, it seemed as though Conan's distaste/lack of respect was cultural rather than racial.
(...)

I agree wih that. He found them more savage and barbarian than himself or any he'd met during his previous voyages.

 

[Demetrio]

Interesting...

not least for the Howardian remedy for depression... a quick drink and presto! cured!

But given it's excised from the actual story, personally I wouldn't regard it as evidence of Conan's charatcer (I'm not saying it would be wrong to do so, just that I'd rather go from the stories as published, on the whole). I'd say it was solid evidence that Howard may well have intended him to be a more complex hero than he ended up with. I wonder how the 'primitive superman' theme would have run with him being prone to depression though...

That said, there are still hints of possible depression in the stories as writ. And I confess the 'gigantic melancholies' quote has always puzzled me a bit as Conan is seldom explicitly melancholy in the stories. Perhaps Howard forgot to excise it. Or maybe he kept it because it as a nice kind of ring to it.

Mind you, Conan the Depressive sounds like a story de Camp's wife would have written.

He found them more savage and barbarian than himself or any he'd met during his previous voyages.

doesn't really account for the two explicitly racist remarks I quoted above.

 

[Jacek]

This so called melancholy might well be the result of his rich life. After all, during the events depicted in "the Phoenix on the Sword " he was quite advanced in years, having lived through more than most of other people would ever experience. In the heart, however, he was a simple man what explains his ability to recover quicly from those rare moments of wondering.

He found them more savage and barbarian than himself or any he'd met during his previous voyages.

doesn't really account for the two explicitly racist remarks I quoted above.

True, your arguments are strong. I completely forgot 'bout those sentences in the text.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Interesting...

But given it's excised from the actual story, personally I wouldn't regard it as evidence of Conan's charatcer (I'm not saying it would be wrong to do so, just that I'd rather go from the stories as published, on the whole). I'd say it was solid evidence that Howard may well have intended him to be a more complex hero than he ended up with.

Sometimes an author excises material not because it isn't right for the character, but because it slows down the pacing, doesn't add to the plot, and for other reasons. Of course, he may have cut it because he decided it wasn't right for the character. Still, I think it is an interesting passage.

 

[Krushnak]

One thing to remember is that Conan isnt in charge of the Tigress during 'Queen of the Black coast'. Belit is, Conan is just her consort and strongman.

As for the racist comments in 'Vale of lost women' i think it had to do with Conan just being sick and tired of the place and trying to convince the girl of his 'good' intentions as much as anything else.

 

[Demetrio]

I don't disagree Vincent. I just prefer to draw conclusions about the character from the work as published rather than as might-have-been-intended. I don't particularly think one is better than the other, just I prefer my way.

So I'd happily discuss whether Howard's original intention was for Conan to be kind of depressive. But if discussing whether Conan is depressive or not, just personally, I'd discount 'might-have-been' evidence. If you see what I mean.

Like I'd use Chandler's correspondence to gain an insight into what he was attempting to do with Marlowe, but I'd just look at the books themselves for evidence of Marlowe's character.

Anyway, back to Conan on Prozac!

In the aftermath of Belit's death, there's a pretty strong sense that he's disenchanted with a lot of things, he turns his back on the sea, and generally seems mopish and broody. But I don't think he ever again expereinces that kind of loss. Or, other than his broodiness at the start of tPotS, he's shown as moping about much at any point in other stroies.

 

[Demetrio]

Conan is just her consort and strongman

Yes. And that in itself is highly unusual. Generally he'd be scheming to supplant the captain of a pirate ship. Or band of brigands or whatever. Only when he's effectively 'signed a contract' does he seem to settle for a lower place in a heirarchy (like being captain of the guard in Khauran). Of course Belit being a woman is a pretty significant factor given Conan's relative gentleness toward females (he'd have killed men in Vincent's examples above and he doesn't kill Belit when he has the chance, in fact he prepares just to knock her away if he has to).

i think it had to do with Conan just being sick and tired of the place and trying to convince the girl of his 'good' intentions

Aye, right.

As my granny used to say...

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Interesting...

But given it's excised from the actual story, personally I wouldn't regard it as evidence of Conan's charatcer (I'm not saying it would be wrong to do so, just that I'd rather go from the stories as published, on the whole). I'd say it was solid evidence that Howard may well have intended him to be a more complex hero than he ended up with.

Sometimes an author excises material not because it isn't right for the character, but because it slows down the pacing, doesn't add to the plot, and for other reasons. Of course, he may have cut it because he decided it wasn't right for the character. Still, I think it is an interesting passage.

I'd guess that has to be for the characterisation, rather than the pace. That doesnt sound at all like Conan. That sounds more like Howard.

 

[David St-Michel]

Mr Darlage,

I meant "perfect gentleman" with a bit of humor. I remember quite a few quotes when he slaps a girl on the ass and laughs it off when she turns at him, glaring and fuming. Hell, he even slapped the Devi Yasmina on the ass and got away with it. Twice. The Goddess-Queen of Vendhya.

I believe it would be fairly impossible to be a "perfect" gentleman in the Hyborian world.

Even then, to defend Conan (which I am surprised to do, since I intially saw him as a bad guy of sorts), Natala was probably a slave. Barbarian Code of Honor underlines that they have no trouble taking or freeing slaves as it suits them. Ok, so he took a slave. That, in itself, is not such a big deal. In the Player's handbook, there are a LOT of countries who are slaver countries. a LOT. And the fiefdom system in a few others is just another word to say "slave".

Well, considering what the nine hells Atala (was that her name? Ymir's daughter) is, and what she does (bewitching men to run after her and die freezing in the snow), she just got caught at her own game and cried to daddy like the spoiled little goddess brat she is.

he dropped the girl in a pile of dung because she bretrayed him, if I remember correctly. he would've sliced any MAN who betrayed him in pieces.

I do admit that I've forgotten the last one you speak about, so I can't say anything.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Maybe it would be a better world all round if more guys slapped more women on the ass. It would be an interesting experiment.

 

[Demetrio]

A woman, a dog and a walnut tree
The more you beat 'em, the better they be.

Though I confess my research into the matter has been somwhat limited by the astonishing lack of available research grants.

 

[David St-Michel]

A woman, a dog and a walnut tree
The more you beat 'em, the better they be.

Though I confess my research into the matter has been somwhat limited by the astonishing lack of available research grants.

Astonishing indeed! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[zozotroll]

I confess to being a coward. Since I taught my wife how to shoot my .357 I have no intention of testing your theory.

 

[David St-Michel]

I'm not too sure that it's considered cowardly not to slap a woman's ass if she dosen't want to. The fact that she owns and knows how to use a dangerous firearm makes all the more logical.

Just make sure you've locked the gun somewhere safely first.

P.S.: This is just a joke.

 

[Jacek]

I believe it would be fairly impossible to be a "perfect" gentleman in the Hyborian world.

Oh but it would, it would. It's all just the measure of "perfection". After all, the gentleman is a man of impeccable manners in every situations, not just when dealing with a woman. I believe most of the Hyborian Age nobility have been taught to behave properly. Even Cimmerian highlanders do have a code they adhere to - the most important rule he followed was loyalty to his kin and companions, which he obeyed but obviously it doesn't forbid slapping wenches.

The above also applies to the matter of slavery.

 

[Krushnak]

come on supp 4 have you finished reading the story yet?

 

[Supplement Four]

come on supp 4 have you finished reading the story yet?

Go ahead and spoiler away! I haven't finished the story yet, but I'll make sure I do before I check this thread again--so, no more spoiler restrictions due to me.

I just read the part where Conan woke and found Belit hanging from the yard arm.

DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!

And, with so much of the story left...wow!

I'm really digging this story.

I'll finish it quickly.