alex_greene
Guest
Since the whole thread was deleted accidentally, this is the Son of the above topic.
Please continue your discussion here.
Please continue your discussion here.
Battlefield Evolution kickstarter
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Rick
Mongoose
Ok. See what I remember.
Lots of great posts where we all thought Battlefield Evolution was far too good a ruleset to ignore and that it was arguably the best Modern wargame pick-up rules on the market, Matt added that Mongoose were looking at a Stalingrad set, other opinions were that different eras or settings of modern warfare could be explored.. Opinion differed as to whether there should be a Mongoose miniatures range as well, with some thinking a kickstarter project might be the way to go, others thinking there were a lot of modern miniatures on the market already - Matt asked if we had any opinions on what might be the best Modern miniatures manufacturer.
I put up a post saying that I thought Empress, then The Assault Group were 1st and 2nd in 28mm.
Khurasan, Rebel or Flashpoint were the best, Peter Pig or QRF were more extensive for 15mm's. 20mm there are a lot of good manufacturers, including several doing good plastic sets.
Then it all went blank. :roll:
Lots of great posts where we all thought Battlefield Evolution was far too good a ruleset to ignore and that it was arguably the best Modern wargame pick-up rules on the market, Matt added that Mongoose were looking at a Stalingrad set, other opinions were that different eras or settings of modern warfare could be explored.. Opinion differed as to whether there should be a Mongoose miniatures range as well, with some thinking a kickstarter project might be the way to go, others thinking there were a lot of modern miniatures on the market already - Matt asked if we had any opinions on what might be the best Modern miniatures manufacturer.
I put up a post saying that I thought Empress, then The Assault Group were 1st and 2nd in 28mm.
Khurasan, Rebel or Flashpoint were the best, Peter Pig or QRF were more extensive for 15mm's. 20mm there are a lot of good manufacturers, including several doing good plastic sets.
Then it all went blank. :roll:
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
To my mind anything WW2 is just another drop in the ocean. WW2 is heavily covered by other games, but I don't know of any mainstream tabletop game that covers modern platoon-level combat. I'm sure there are rulesets out there if you're a niche gamer, but Battlefield Evolution could reach the same level as Flames of War with the right marketing and a decent model line. It's never going to be anything other than a niche product itself if it's just a ruleset.
Victory at Sea shows the quality of models MGP can produce today. So take that quality and apply it to a complete range of BF Evo models, designed for this ruleset, so there are no superfluous figures in the packs. No need for artillery models, for instance, so no need to make mortar teams or artillery vehicles, gun crews, etc. We need decent single-pose figures for the major armies covered in the game, plus vehicles in scale with them. British Army would need a rifleman, rifle/grenade launcher, Minimi gunner, LSW sharpshooter, and a rifleman carrying a LAW over his shoulder to make the basic section. Then you'd need two-man sniper team models, two-man GPMG SF role team, Javelin missile team, and whatever the man-packed SAM we use these days is. On top of that you need platoon-level command figures, so a lieutenant, platoon sergeant, signaller and possibly a medic. After that it's just vehicles - Warrior, WMIK Land Rover, Scimitar, Challenger 2, etc. For aircraft, just do helicopters, leave the fast-movers as off-table rules along with artillery. Lynx, Chinook, Apache, Sea King, Merlin, couple of other helicopters could be done eventually. Lynx and Apache would probably be the main ones to start as these are armed. Chinook could be important for airborne assault missions.
It'd be a big range, but that's largely the point. A good range of models is what brings in players. It's how FoW and 40K keep people coming back. New releases get people excited about the game. Doing BF Evo without a miniatures range is just a half-hearted effort, never going to bring in serious revenue.
Victory at Sea shows the quality of models MGP can produce today. So take that quality and apply it to a complete range of BF Evo models, designed for this ruleset, so there are no superfluous figures in the packs. No need for artillery models, for instance, so no need to make mortar teams or artillery vehicles, gun crews, etc. We need decent single-pose figures for the major armies covered in the game, plus vehicles in scale with them. British Army would need a rifleman, rifle/grenade launcher, Minimi gunner, LSW sharpshooter, and a rifleman carrying a LAW over his shoulder to make the basic section. Then you'd need two-man sniper team models, two-man GPMG SF role team, Javelin missile team, and whatever the man-packed SAM we use these days is. On top of that you need platoon-level command figures, so a lieutenant, platoon sergeant, signaller and possibly a medic. After that it's just vehicles - Warrior, WMIK Land Rover, Scimitar, Challenger 2, etc. For aircraft, just do helicopters, leave the fast-movers as off-table rules along with artillery. Lynx, Chinook, Apache, Sea King, Merlin, couple of other helicopters could be done eventually. Lynx and Apache would probably be the main ones to start as these are armed. Chinook could be important for airborne assault missions.
It'd be a big range, but that's largely the point. A good range of models is what brings in players. It's how FoW and 40K keep people coming back. New releases get people excited about the game. Doing BF Evo without a miniatures range is just a half-hearted effort, never going to bring in serious revenue.
Rick
Mongoose
I happen to agree with you about the WW2 situation, that it's almost saturated from squad level games right up to divisional level!
Not 100% agreeing with you on the figures front. I DO agree that Mongoose would need to tie the rules to a line of figures, but they don't need to be in-house; look at the JD partnership with Warlord for inspiration on that. Speaking of Warlord, what they have done with Bolt Action could be an excellent way to go with a BfE range - a plastic multi-pose platoon box, then specialist teams in metal added in. Given the huge scope of a modern range, it would be difficult for a single company to set up the miniatures lines completely from scratch; consider your British range proposal (I added a couple of figures where necessary) - 2-3 x rifleman poses, rifle/grenade launcher, Minimi gunner, LSW sharpshooter, and a rifleman + LAW and an NCO, 2 x sniper team, 2 x GPMG team, 2 x Javelin team, 2 x Starstreak team, lieutenant, platoon sergeant, possibly a medic. Probably need 1-2 additional NCO figures, so you are looking at around 20 figures at an extremely basic level - add US, Afghan/Insurgent, German, Australian or Canadian and you are talking about needing 100+ poses plus vehicles in just one 'setting' - that would be a huge undertaking for 1 company. But - if you go look at someone like Empress miniatures, they already produce most of what we've looked at, and more!
Not 100% agreeing with you on the figures front. I DO agree that Mongoose would need to tie the rules to a line of figures, but they don't need to be in-house; look at the JD partnership with Warlord for inspiration on that. Speaking of Warlord, what they have done with Bolt Action could be an excellent way to go with a BfE range - a plastic multi-pose platoon box, then specialist teams in metal added in. Given the huge scope of a modern range, it would be difficult for a single company to set up the miniatures lines completely from scratch; consider your British range proposal (I added a couple of figures where necessary) - 2-3 x rifleman poses, rifle/grenade launcher, Minimi gunner, LSW sharpshooter, and a rifleman + LAW and an NCO, 2 x sniper team, 2 x GPMG team, 2 x Javelin team, 2 x Starstreak team, lieutenant, platoon sergeant, possibly a medic. Probably need 1-2 additional NCO figures, so you are looking at around 20 figures at an extremely basic level - add US, Afghan/Insurgent, German, Australian or Canadian and you are talking about needing 100+ poses plus vehicles in just one 'setting' - that would be a huge undertaking for 1 company. But - if you go look at someone like Empress miniatures, they already produce most of what we've looked at, and more!
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
You don't actually need separate figures for NCOs. Neither the corporal or lance-corporal in an infantry section look any different to the other soldiers, they're equipped as riflemen. A bit nit-picky but it does eliminate several models if you don't try to do a special NCO figure. Confine that to the platoon OC and sergeant.
In-house or out-sourced makes no nevermind to me, as long as there's a miniature line that fills the needs the rules set creates. If you use a generic line from some other company you end up buying more than you need, having redundant figures. Take Liberation Miniatures as an example. They do British riflemen in packs of nine figures. Who needs nine riflemen? You need four for a section, two of which need to be shown carrying LAWs.
I like the idea of a plastic multi-pose box that gives you a platoon. I like it a lot. If it includes the command section as well it'd be even better. With multi-part models you could include optional upgrades like swapping Minimi for GPMG, which would be possible in some settings, and also LSW instead of Minimi as the section LMGs. Specialist teams in metal would be fine, as you'd need relatively few - handful of GPMG SF role teams at most, couple of Javelins, Starstreaks, whatever.
Not sure if I mentioned it before but a British range/army list would need to include SAS and SBS fire teams, so you need extra models for them. A couple of rifleman poses with M16, at least one with M16/M203, a Minimi gunner, trooper with LAW, probably trooper with GPMG as well. These could be really nice models as they'd likely be a bit of a centrepiece.
I think Mongoose could make a deal with a decent miniatures company to do this and make a success of it. One thing I would say, if you go for a fictional "World War 3" scenario, forget that nonsense with a federal Europe and fictional Middle Eastern country. Just leave it pretty vague, shooting starts because of tension in Eastern Europe and gets out of hand. NATO vs Russia initially, then spreads as China, India and so on get involved. NATO vs Russia would sell the game and once it's generating a bit of revenue you can expand, adding other NATO nations, France, Germany, Denmark, etc on top of UK and US, and then do China, India, South Africa, Australia, Canada. It could be big, if done right.
In-house or out-sourced makes no nevermind to me, as long as there's a miniature line that fills the needs the rules set creates. If you use a generic line from some other company you end up buying more than you need, having redundant figures. Take Liberation Miniatures as an example. They do British riflemen in packs of nine figures. Who needs nine riflemen? You need four for a section, two of which need to be shown carrying LAWs.
I like the idea of a plastic multi-pose box that gives you a platoon. I like it a lot. If it includes the command section as well it'd be even better. With multi-part models you could include optional upgrades like swapping Minimi for GPMG, which would be possible in some settings, and also LSW instead of Minimi as the section LMGs. Specialist teams in metal would be fine, as you'd need relatively few - handful of GPMG SF role teams at most, couple of Javelins, Starstreaks, whatever.
Not sure if I mentioned it before but a British range/army list would need to include SAS and SBS fire teams, so you need extra models for them. A couple of rifleman poses with M16, at least one with M16/M203, a Minimi gunner, trooper with LAW, probably trooper with GPMG as well. These could be really nice models as they'd likely be a bit of a centrepiece.
I think Mongoose could make a deal with a decent miniatures company to do this and make a success of it. One thing I would say, if you go for a fictional "World War 3" scenario, forget that nonsense with a federal Europe and fictional Middle Eastern country. Just leave it pretty vague, shooting starts because of tension in Eastern Europe and gets out of hand. NATO vs Russia initially, then spreads as China, India and so on get involved. NATO vs Russia would sell the game and once it's generating a bit of revenue you can expand, adding other NATO nations, France, Germany, Denmark, etc on top of UK and US, and then do China, India, South Africa, Australia, Canada. It could be big, if done right.
Rick
Mongoose
Well, Warlord plastic sets are somewhere around 25-30 figures, but the more bits you need, the fewer figures. So a platoon might be a metal command team and plastic squads, or buy multiple boxes. Again, as with the Bolt Action range, the metal figures are the ones people will only buy a few of, so it makes sense.
For my 2p worth - if I was setting out a Battlefield Evolution book, I wouldn't include a fictional background at all, just have army lists for a few factions and let the players sort out who and where to fight. Adding settings books should add more setting-specific army lists, a few scenarios and maybe a couple of rules that would be unique to that setting.
For my 2p worth - if I was setting out a Battlefield Evolution book, I wouldn't include a fictional background at all, just have army lists for a few factions and let the players sort out who and where to fight. Adding settings books should add more setting-specific army lists, a few scenarios and maybe a couple of rules that would be unique to that setting.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Yeah, you could go that way. Just have generic modern lists for NATO countries, Russia, China and a few others, and nation-specific special rules, unique equipment and so on.
Rick
Mongoose
Just in the main book.Lord David the Denied said:
If I was doing a 'settings' book for Bosnia, say, I might include a British Light Infantry list (assuming the various lists in the rulebook were Mech Inf lists), US Armoured Cavalry, Canadian list, Dutch lists, Russian Recce list, Bosnian military list, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian militia lists, some of the other IFOR/SFOR military units in the region (how many would depend on space requirements). Overview of the area and history of the conflict, special rules to cover the peace-keeping or implementation ROE, and lastly a chapter on the Pristina Airport incident and notes on expanding that into a hypothetical US/Nato vs Russia war.
I think it would be good to use this rough idea of a layout - additional books could focus on other conflicts around the same time (introducing additional army lists).
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Yes, I like it. Matt, hope you're taking notes here.
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