Base Magical Damage

[SilverOwl]

The following classes have "Magical Combat" as a class feature:

Brother of the Crystal Star
Magician of Dessi
Adept (NPC - Partial)
Cener Druid
Herbalish
Wytch Chyld/Shadakine Wytch
Shianti Sorceror
Vakeros (Partial)

All these classes have their "attack table" for Magical Combat listed, along with in most cases a specific way in which they can actually access the "extra attack" columns.

BotCS gain additional attacks (using their Base Magical Combat Skill) with the Electric Pulse.
Magicians of Dessi gain additional attacks using their Wizard's Staff
So do Shianti Sorcerors.
And Vakeros use theirs with their Blue-Steel weapons all the time.

However, most of the others are unclear.

Cener Druids do not appear to gain multiple "magical" attacks with their Spirit Edges, and many of their spells say they can only be used once per round. As far as I can see, with the possible exception of the Path of Disease Gaze attack, there is nowhere I could apply bonus attacks for "magical combat". Is that as intended?

Adepts have no obvious way at all to leverage multiple attacks.

Healer Herbalish too have no magical weapons, and about the only attacking spell they have that might qualify is the Storm's Caress touch attack. I do see that Hunter Herbalish may use their Base Magical Combat Skill attacks when using Natural Weapons or in Shapeshifted forms though. Is that the only application of the chart for that class?

Wytch Chyldren are in fact the antithesis of "fast magical attacks" although they have Power Stones and Wytch's Keys, which will prompt a question below as well...

Namely:

Have I understood the rules correctly in that I am limiting Spell-Casters to one spell per round, and only allowing spell-casters multiple "magical attacks" through the channeling medium of special items?

Or should _all_ Spell-Casters technically be able to cast more than spell per round at higher levels if the spell is listed as a "standard action" to cast and not specifically prohibited from being cast twice?

As a case in point: under Magicians of Dessi it carefully says that you cannot use more than one Elder Art in a given combat round... But if you are using Sorcery in a combat round, and you're a Level 6 Magician, could you cast two Force Blades in the same round using your Base Magical Attack Bonus at +6 and +1 to hit respectively? Or do you cast it ocne and get the benefit of hitting twice with the same spell?

And secondarily... If you are for instance a Sage of Lyris (no "magical combat" class feature) who has reached say Level 8 (+6/+1 normal attacks per round) and your Primary Path is "Left Handed Sage Magic" can you cast something like Dazing Beam or Elemental Ray more than once per round if you take the "Full Attack" action?

Basically, I'm trying to understand whether the "extra attacks" implied by the "base magical combat skill" column are only supposed to apply to a careful selection of spellcasters, and also be limited to certain special types of attacks they might use, or whether they are intended to be a more general feature of all spellcasters that I have inadvertently been handicapping my casters over

 

[Balgin Stondraeg]

Healer Herbalish too have no magical weapons, and about the only attacking spell they have that might qualify is the Storm's Caress touch attack. I do see that Hunter Herbalish may use their Base Magical Combat Skill attacks when using Natural Weapons or in Shapeshifted forms though. Is that the only application of the chart for that class?

Back when I was playing a Herbalish in one of the TOTS roleplaying games I worked out one or two ways for Herbalish to make magical attacks. The most obvious way is that healing damages undead (and their "base magical damage" is their healing ammount for normal attempts anyway).

I worked out a second time when the base magical attack bonus would apply but can't remember what it was (it was back last year). It was something to do with the air disciplines I think. I'd chosen to focus in a different direction so I probably wasn't going to be getting those magical attacks anytime soon. If I'd focussed on getting them I would've probably remembered it more.

Want me to look it up for you and see if I spot it again?

 

[SilverOwl]

... then yes please.

Also: did you set these uses based on your own thumb-suck gut feel for what magic should be like in your campaign, or were you basing it off some sort of semi-official feedback?

 

[Balgin Stondraeg]

It's default rules that healing hurts undead. I'll look later then.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Lets see if I can answer that from what I understand about this topic.

First, Base Magical Combat Skill serves to deal with every magical effect that needs a "to hit" roll and causes magical damage of some kind. It goes up with level, and a character gains more magical attacks at the same rate as with normal attacks.

Generally, casting a spell is a standard action, except if the spell description implies differently. For example, the description for Tier I of the Lightning Hand spell expressively states:
"As the Brotherhood's primary combat art, this spell can be cast and attacked with as many times as the caster has attacks per round based on his magical combat skill bonus (though each attack after the first costs an additional 1 Endurance)."
This I would take as an example of how to deal with other directly damaging spells, such as Force Blade of Dessi fame (you only use one Elder Art, Sorcery, per round, casting it more than once costs additional Willpower), or the Elemental Strike of the Sage of Lyris (where each casting counts against the daily limit of the Sage's spell casting). The same would be true for the Wizard's Staff, which is used with the BMCS (although melee attacks use Strength bonus, not Int, for attack).

The rest of the spells that are not tied to the BMCS should be viewed as "one per round" only.

The Herbalish (as well as the Cener) use their BMCS whenever they attack with one of their Circle (Spiral) spells..that includes touch attacks or gaze attacks. Unless the spell description states that it can only be cast once per round (like Withering which needs to be cast as a move action), you can use the spell in a "full attack" routine if your BMCS grants you more than one attack, making you pay the casting cost for each attack in that routine.

Hope I could help a bit. Since I'm not August Hahn, I don't give 100% guranatee of correctness on my interpretations, though.

 

[Balgin Stondraeg]

It's the storm one where things get buffetted by wind or struck by lightning that gets multiple attacks. Also various magical wands and stuff can be used to make multiple magic attacks too.

Circle of Sea and Sky:

Tiers 4 & 10 may make multiple attacks. Read tier 10 very carefuly as it has 2 different attack effects. One of them is once per round whilst the other may make multiple attacks.

Tiers 3 & 7 may not make multiple attacks.

 

[SilverOwl]

First, Base Magical Combat Skill serves to deal with every magical effect that needs a "to hit" roll and causes magical damage of some kind. It goes up with level, and a character gains more magical attacks at the same rate as with normal attacks.

I like this idea, and it seems right, but there are a few complications, which was why I posted the original question...

Specifically, the Sage of Lyris says that his spell uses a "ranged touch attack", which is not actually governed by Base Magical Combat... And technically a Wizard's Staff can be used by anyone with a Willpower Score (such as a Kai Lord) and also does not require Base Magical Combat as a score. My point being that it's unclear whether these attacks are supposed to be using the characters "normal Combat Skills" or "magical Combat Skills" to determine the chance to hit.

I _did_ find a handy ruling that states that for classes without "Magical Combat" as a Class ability, their Base Magical Combat score is taken by dividing their level by 2. But that also doesn't say whether or not such "non-spell-casters" benefit from multiple attacks or not when they reach say 12th level.

Wait. Pretty much the last paragraph in "Magic of Magnamund" says

"A touch attack is not a magical attack however. It will always use the attacker's Base Combat Skill, not his Base magical Combat Skill. It may also inflict damage as normal for an unarmed strike."

So actually, this counters Balgin's reading of Circle of Sea and Sky 4 - as a Touch Attack, this attack does not benefit from Base Magical Combat Skill, and the poor Herbalish only gets his second attack at Level 12 with that spell. And leaves a "Healer" Herbalish without any use for his Base Magical Combat skill score again.

Additionally, I am left looking at things like the Shadakine Wytch / Wytch Chylde Rituals - which take minutes to cast without a Key. However, they say funny things like: (Astralis Majora Rank II) - Summon ... ray of solar fire. This is a magical ranged attack ... It can strike only one target and inflicts the Wytch's Base Magical Damage.

So... If we're attacking with a Base Combat Skill of "+8/+3" does that mean we actually get to strike the same target twice, or attack two separate targets if we want?

Generally, casting a spell is a standard action, except if the spell description implies differently. For example, the description for Tier I of the Lightning Hand spell expressively states:
"As the Brotherhood's primary combat art, this spell can be cast and attacked with as many times as the caster has attacks per round based on his magical combat skill bonus (though each attack after the first costs an additional 1 Endurance)."
This I would take as an example of how to deal with other directly damaging spells, such as Force Blade of Dessi fame (you only use one Elder Art, Sorcery, per round, casting it more than once costs additional Willpower), or the Elemental Strike of the Sage of Lyris (where each casting counts against the daily limit of the Sage's spell casting). The same would be true for the Wizard's Staff, which is used with the BMCS (although melee attacks use Strength bonus, not Int, for attack).

The rest of the spells that are not tied to the BMCS should be viewed as "one per round" only.

The only "basic" problem with this I have is very simple - Magic has always seemed very "powerful" in Magnamund to me. And intentionally intended to be so, even against high-level, potent warriors.

I am seriously struggling to reconcile "My L20 NPC Mage casts a Fire spell and does his Base magical to all in 40 feet - every takes 2d10." with that image. Because realistically, any party of 4 players L8 or so is going to laugh off 2d10 and proceed to cut him up big time with melee attacks.

I appreciate that we have rules for "Grievous Wounds" which magical attacks can inflict - but who can generate 50 damage with a 2d10 Spell attack at 20th level?

So basically, it looks like an awful lot of house rules for me, and creative use of the BMC and other attack tables in order to make things feel more balanced (as in, magic feeling stronger) than it is somehow. I was sort of hoping someone semi-official (or even August) might have something to say regarding this thread and the intended use of magical "Attacks per Round" with various spells or devices.

Because if a Magician of Dessi with a high BMCS _can_ cast say 3 Force Blades a round, how is that technically different to invoking Enchantment the same way and generating a Mirage, Probe and Coercion in the same round? Or invoking Prophecy to use Future Sight, Aura Sight and Location Sight all at once?

Guess I'll just have to go away and do some serious thinking as usual...

 

[beowuuf]

I'm not sure of the context of healing/harming and touch attacks, but I imagine a touch attack only counts as a touch attack if there is some effort to seize or leap at the recipient/victim - hence martial skills will be involved, and BCS used (so healing/harming someone in a fight or healing/harming someone who is trying to resist).

In calm conditions to a friend or the unsuspecting I assume the 'touch attack' is just a mechanial way of describing the chances of success, and so you would use the MCS

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Going point by point, for as much as I can answer from my understanding of the text.

Specifically, the Sage of Lyris says that his spell uses a "ranged touch attack", which is not actually governed by Base Magical Combat... And technically a Wizard's Staff can be used by anyone with a Willpower Score (such as a Kai Lord) and also does not require Base Magical Combat as a score. My point being that it's unclear whether these attacks are supposed to be using the characters "normal Combat Skills" or "magical Combat Skills" to determine the chance to hit.

The Sage's Elemental Ray says "The Sage must succeed at a ranged magical attack to deal damage to the target." I think that clears this spell up.
About the Wizard's Staff: The ranged attack is cleanly spelled out as a "ranged magical attack", so if you want to use it, you use your BMCS. As a melee weapon, if you possess the Magical Combat class feature, you can use your BMCS score in melee instead of your normal BCS. If you don't, you use your BCS to use the Staff as a melee weapon. The Willpower-multiplied damage in melee does not call for a magical attack specifically, only that you hit the opponent.

I _did_ find a handy ruling that states that for classes without "Magical Combat" as a Class ability, their Base Magical Combat score is taken by dividing their level by 2. But that also doesn't say whether or not such "non-spell-casters" benefit from multiple attacks or not when they reach say 12th level.

The paragraph "Magical Combat" on page 150 of the LWPRG book states that if you don't have the Magical Combat class feature, you divide your class level by 2 to determine your Base Magical Combat Skill. Afterwards, it states that due to changes in BMCS, the number of attacks can change too. BCMS is not dependent on the Magical Combat feature to scale up the number of attacks. For non-casters, the number of magical attacks they get goes up a lot slower, that's all.

Wait. Pretty much the last paragraph in "Magic of Magnamund" says

"A touch attack is not a magical attack however. It will always use the attacker's Base Combat Skill, not his Base magical Combat Skill. It may also inflict damage as normal for an unarmed strike."

So actually, this counters Balgin's reading of Circle of Sea and Sky 4 - as a Touch Attack, this attack does not benefit from Base Magical Combat Skill, and the poor Herbalish only gets his second attack at Level 12 with that spell. And leaves a "Healer" Herbalish without any use for his Base Magical Combat skill score again.

Right, you pointed me at something I hadn't read yet myself...curse my selective reading habit. :lol: On the other hand, Circle of Sea and Sky has still Tier VII: Wind Strike as a ranged magical attack. And I doubt you'll find a "pure" Healer Herbalish after some more levels, as they can take steps in more than one Circle with time. Pure healers will most likely not appear as adventurers, but are great as NPCs. And if you get a pure healer as PC, well...then a more pacifistic set of abilities is not that unfitting, is it? The class acts as an umbrella for a host of potential combinations after all, and a pure healer, while doable as well, will simply miss out on one class feature...magical combat.

Additionally, I am left looking at things like the Shadakine Wytch / Wytch Chylde Rituals - which take minutes to cast without a Key. However, they say funny things like: (Astralis Majora Rank II) - Summon ... ray of solar fire. This is a magical ranged attack ... It can strike only one target and inflicts the Wytch's Base Magical Damage.

So... If we're attacking with a Base Combat Skill of "+8/+3" does that mean we actually get to strike the same target twice, or attack two separate targets if we want?

I read the passages again, and I think you'll have to do some DM's interpretation on them yourself. For my opinion...

- A Ritual without any help takes a minute/Rank in the field. Meaning that star fire ray goes off after a minute of casting, hits one target with a range increment of 30 feet, and that's it.

- Power Stones or Wytch's Keys act as magical items, storing the Ritual effect and releasing it on the action of the caster, as a standard action. Power Stones are destroyed while being used, and Keys are empty after used, so neither allows you multiple castings of the same Ritual, so basically you can't try to chuck the same Ritual more than once per round, so no multiple attacks either.

IF you get multiple magical attacks due to high BMCS, treat it as the same thing as a full-attack action with a normal weapon....you can attack anyone in reach of your used attack form, as long as you don't move more than 5 feet in the same round.

The only "basic" problem with this I have is very simple - Magic has always seemed very "powerful" in Magnamund to me. And intentionally intended to be so, even against high-level, potent warriors.

I am seriously struggling to reconcile "My L20 NPC Mage casts a Fire spell and does his Base magical to all in 40 feet - every takes 2d10." with that image. Because realistically, any party of 4 players L8 or so is going to laugh off 2d10 and proceed to cut him up big time with melee attacks.

I appreciate that we have rules for "Grievous Wounds" which magical attacks can inflict - but who can generate 50 damage with a 2d10 Spell attack at 20th level?

So basically, it looks like an awful lot of house rules for me, and creative use of the BMC and other attack tables in order to make things feel more balanced (as in, magic feeling stronger) than it is somehow. I was sort of hoping someone semi-official (or even August) might have something to say regarding this thread and the intended use of magical "Attacks per Round" with various spells or devices.

Because if a Magician of Dessi with a high BMCS _can_ cast say 3 Force Blades a round, how is that technically different to invoking Enchantment the same way and generating a Mirage, Probe and Coercion in the same round? Or invoking Prophecy to use Future Sight, Aura Sight and Location Sight all at once?

Guess I'll just have to go away and do some serious thinking as usual...

This is where you have to evaluate magic in Lone Wolf and make it into something you imagine it to be. If you don't think casting multiple spells per round will damage your game, then by all means, implement it.

I think the multiple magical attacks are in there exactly because they are meant to balance the multiple "normal" attacks a combat class gains with time. Since the other spells basically amount to "special effects", there is not that much in other classes that balances against them, so granting them more than once per round might leave other classes in the dust.

Apart from that, at 20th level, a Magician of Dessi will have a good chance to hit with his first 3 Force Blades most of the time (since the 2nd will get a +1 and the 3rd will get a +2 bonus to attack). That's 6d12 points of magical damage, 40 points on average, 50 with some luck rolling the dice. And a Brother of the Crystal Star can use the Word of Power energy to chuck a 10d10 points of damage energy ball at anything within 120 feet, damaging everybody in a 25 feet radius (save for half) without even rolling for attack. Once per round. As long as his endurance holds out. Not too shappy either, I'd say.

But as I said, this is where everybody must evaluate the magic in Lone Wolf for his own tastes.


EDIT: A possibility that just came to my mind is that an attack spell has to be cast only once to be used with as many attacks as your BMCS grants you...meaning Force Blade gives you one blade per attack you have, Lightning Hand of Rank II of Astralis Majora similarly, as well as Elemental Ray of the Sage's, etc. The thing is, I can't find clear text to either rule one way or another, so it's a matter of how friendly you want to be to your casters.

 

[Balgin Stondraeg]

So actually, this counters Balgin's reading of Circle of Sea and Sky 4 - as a Touch Attack, this attack does not benefit from Base Magical Combat Skill, and the poor Herbalish only gets his second attack at Level 12 with that spell. And leaves a "Healer" Herbalish without any use for his Base Magical Combat skill score again.

I'm afraid not. You see, as soon as you make the attack the energy is discharged and must be summoned again. Calling the energy is not a free action so you can't do more than one per round.

It probably helps if you use the propper rules for touch attacks too:

Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Link

On the other hand, Circle of Sea and Sky has still Tier VII: Wind Strike as a ranged magical attack.

Yep, not ranged magical touch attack. So BMCS is used .

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I'm afraid not. You see, as soon as you make the attack the energy is discharged and must be summoned again. Calling the energy is not a free action so you can't do more than one per round.

Uhm...but it is, unless I'm interpreting the text on that Tier wrong.
"The Herbalish pays the power's Endurance cost when he calls forth the corona of lightning around his hand as a free action and can hold it for up to five rounds before using it against an opponent or releasing it in a harmless display of lightning and sparks."

As to how that influences the number of touch attacks a Herbalish can do with that power, that's something I need to read into in the core rules again. :wink:

 

[Balgin Stondraeg]

Ah, free action means you could do multiple attacks then . You'd pay endurance for each attack 'though because each attack is a separate casting of the same spell (like the first tier of lightning hand).

You'd also only be able to make as many touch attacks as you get attacks (so one for every 5 base combat skill or part thereof).