Backstab, Sneak Attacks, etc.

[Sleepy Fremen]

I was running a game on the weekend and one of my players snuck up on an enemy with a knife for a quick take-down. A which point I was flummoxed as to what to do. A normal melee attack depriving the opponent of a chance to dodge didn't seem appropriate. I looked through the core rulebook but was unable to find any rules for sneak attacks. Are there rules for sneak attacks and if there are where are they? Its possible I just missed them. I ended up just giving the character two times the effect bonus for the attack and that did the trick, but if there are proper rules for it I'd prefer to use them.

 

[F33D]

See Skill, Stealth. No extra damage (well, exceptional success) but can give the defender no dodge if skill check succeeds...

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

See Skill, Stealth. No extra damage (well, exceptional success) but can give the defender no dodge if skill check succeeds...

I see sneaking past a guard and avoiding detection by security patrols. In addition to the kind of skills that oppose it. It doesn't seem to specifically mention attacking. Maybe this was added by an errata.
If there isn't any damage bonus just no chance to dodge, sneak attacks don't seen a particularly viable tactic in Traveller.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If there isn't any damage bonus just no chance to dodge, sneak attacks don't seen a particularly viable tactic in Traveller.

You either do a surprise attack (the person you attack is surprised to see you, and you may be the last thing they think of before dying), or you don't. A surprise allows you to do an attack without them ducking, defending, hiding, running, shooting back, etc.

If you expect your club to do more damage on his head because you surprised him, well... no. You just get to bash his brains in first is all. His skull and your club do not change. This isn't a Bethesda game exactly. But damage effect can be used for something.

 

[F33D]

See Skill, Stealth. No extra damage (well, exceptional success) but can give the defender no dodge if skill check succeeds...

I see sneaking past a guard and avoiding detection by security patrols. In addition to the kind of skills that oppose it. It doesn't seem to specifically mention attacking. Maybe this was added by an errata.
If there isn't any damage bonus just no chance to dodge, sneak attacks don't seen a particularly viable tactic in Traveller.

Pretty simple. Sneak up on someone instead of going past them. Attack, no dodge. Roll for attack. Maybe chance of extra damage due to better success chance. Not an errata issue. The skill descriptions just give a sample. The GM builds from there. This isn't D&D.

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

See Skill, Stealth. No extra damage (well, exceptional success) but can give the defender no dodge if skill check succeeds...

I see sneaking past a guard and avoiding detection by security patrols. In addition to the kind of skills that oppose it. It doesn't seem to specifically mention attacking. Maybe this was added by an errata.
If there isn't any damage bonus just no chance to dodge, sneak attacks don't seen a particularly viable tactic in Traveller.

Pretty simple. Sneak up on someone instead of going past them. Attack, no dodge. Roll for attack. Maybe chance of extra damage due to better success chance. Not an errata issue. The skill descriptions just give a sample. The GM builds from there. This isn't D&D.

I understand its not DnD, it just seemed like you were referencing something I couldn't find since there was not mention of attacking at all. I guess my problem was that a character sneaking up on an enemy, with a knife cant kill them in one shot. So it makes taking down an enemy without alerting others impossible under those circumstances. So while I can easily house rule or dictate what happens as I feel is dramatically appropriate the rules themselves dont facilitate this kind of action. As I am relatively new to this system in particular, thank you for confirming this for me.

 

[coldwar]

With sneak attacks like cutting a person throat, for which I assume your player did, the rules don't really cover it, nor are they intended to do so.

Here is what I would generally do.

Stealth roll: Success, undetected by guard
Then,
Attack roll: Success, the guard simply dies. Failure: roll damage as normal, but, "At the last instance the guard see the blade/catches a glimpse of his attackers arm/feels a tap as the character brushes up against him/her giving the guard enough time to react to possible save his life." The only thing saving is life is that the character failed is attack roll and that he turns slightly, letting the blade come to somewhere that wont kill outright. (Aka, No reaction for the Guard)

I would generally give +2 bonus to the attack roll, or you could use the effect from the stealth roll instead.

But yea, the rules are not meant really to cover something like this. They are generally meant to cover normal combat, not taking your time to slash someones throat from behind. But the above is the best way I can see getting round it.
Note: if the location isn't covered by armour, don't deduct the damage, even if the guard is wearing it. As again, the rules over it considers you trying to attack the target in a normal attack.
Surprise attacks, are considered more along the lines, "A man stands in front of you. Seemingly doing nothing. Suddenly. Out of no where he punches you in the chest."

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

With sneak attacks like cutting a person throat, for which I assume your player did, the rules don't really cover it, nor are they intended to do so.

Here is what I would generally do.

Stealth roll: Success, undetected by guard
Then,
Attack roll: Success, the guard simply dies. Failure: roll damage as normal, but, "At the last instance the guard see the blade/catches a glimpse of his attackers arm/feels a tap as the character brushes up against him/her giving the guard enough time to react to possible save his life."

I would generally give +2 bonus to the attack roll, or you could use the effect from the stealth roll instead.

But yea, the rules are not meant really to cover something like this. They are generally meant to cover normal combat, not taking your time to slash someones throat from behind. But the above is the best way I can see getting round it.
Note: if the location isn't covered by armour, don't deduct the damage, even if the guard is wearing it. As again, the rules over it considers you trying to attack the target in a normal attack.
Surprise attacks, are considered more along the lines, "A man stands in front of you. Seemingly doing nothing. Suddenly. Out of no where he punches you in the chest."

Thank you, I think I will do it that way in the future. Its much more elegant than the way I was doing it before.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I guess my problem was that a character sneaking up on an enemy, with a knife cant kill them in one shot. So it makes taking down an enemy without alerting others impossible under those circumstances.

I knife to the neck (role-played out) will take down the guy (assuming you rolled well). Once down, use a Melee skill to break his neck (role-played out), or just stab him again while he's down (roll well again). Do you have to kill the guy? Or can he be allowed to just bleed out in a hallway closet?

I forgot to mention the difficulty DM. Make this all easy stuff to accomplish if your stealth roll is successful.

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

I guess my problem was that a character sneaking up on an enemy, with a knife cant kill them in one shot. So it makes taking down an enemy without alerting others impossible under those circumstances.

I knife to the neck (role-played out) will take down the guy (assuming you rolled well). Once down, use a Melee skill to break his neck (role-played out), or just stab him again while he's down (roll well again). Do you have to kill the guy? Or can he be allowed to just bleed out in a hallway closet?

I forgot to mention the difficulty DM. Make this all easy stuff to accomplish if your stealth roll is successful.

So this would be done outside of a combat situation, since my understanding of the rules is that these actions would take multiple rounds to perform. Outside of combat I think a cut throat would be enough which is why at least for my games I like the way coldwar suggested I do it. Yeah if he didn't die in one round the rest of the enemy squad which had split up at that point would have noticed.

 

[Old timer]

Another way to do this, within the rules is the optional rule on page 66, the knock out blow, so if the damage done to the guard reduced his END to zero, he would be out cold from the attack and then could be finished off, or left. That is how i have done such sneak attacks in the past.

 

[F33D]

I see sneaking past a guard and avoiding detection by security patrols. In addition to the kind of skills that oppose it. It doesn't seem to specifically mention attacking. Maybe this was added by an errata.

No errata needed. You just don't get used to the skill system.

If there isn't any damage bonus just no chance to dodge, sneak attacks don't seen a particularly viable tactic in Traveller.

Keep studying the rules. See: "Knockout Blow"

I guess my problem was that a character sneaking up on an enemy, with a knife cant kill them in one shot. So it makes taking down an enemy without alerting others impossible under those circumstances.

See: "Knockout Blow"

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'll voice in too for the knockout blow.

I guess my problem was that a character sneaking up on an enemy, with a knife cant kill them in one shot.

IMO Traveller has always been more simulation/realistic regarding combat than Hollywood or other entertainment. Of course there is nothing wrong with taking a game the cinematic direction, let us know if thats what you are looking for.

If you expect your club to do more damage on his head because you surprised him, well... no. You just get to bash his brains in first is all. His skull and your club do not change. This isn't a Bethesda game exactly. But damage effect can be used for something.

My thoughts are somewhat along these lines. A sneak attack, especially by someone not very skilled in such, doesn't somehow inherently do more damage than a accurate non stealth attack by a skilled person. More accuracy and likely to hit the key area that does max damage perhaps - but your not trying to do damage are you? Might even be moving slower for less damage, shorter swing for less damage, and less pressure for less damage since you are trying to not be detected before the actual strike?

Without going into all the real life gruesome details, lots of people try to kill themselves or try to kill someone defenseless and don't have much success. The stealth portion mostly means you get to try undetected.

With sneak attacks like cutting a person throat, for which I assume your player did, the rules don't really cover it, nor are they intended to do so.

This exact detail may not be in the rules but there are several possibilities from within the rules.

I see sneaking past a guard and avoiding detection by security patrols. In addition to the kind of skills that oppose it. It doesn't seem to specifically mention attacking.

Most skills only give a couple examples. I see no reason one couldn't just say I am going to sneak and do [something] and the GM sets difficulty and DMs and if you succeed, that's it. The attack may be used for say a clubbing to determine damage and determining how long someone might stay that way but if the sneak was a success, the guard is out cold.

Although the above is possible with the rules as written, I'm not sure if I'd do it that way though because I believe someone sneaky as a pick pocket but with no training at all in slitting someones throat could easily get the attack in but not produce the result intended.

Another option in the rules would be task chain. Using the sneak effect on the attack roll.

Another option is that the successful sneak attack does not require the "to successfully hit" attack roll and just a damage roll. Perhaps the attack roll, no matter the success, hits and is only for adding effect to the damage roll, possibly positive or negative to represent the characters combat skill.

So in summary, for me, I'd use the sneak skill task (which might include saying I'm attack a spot where the target isn't armored for say a guard with some body armor but no head protection) and if successful add the effect to an attack roll and whether successful or not, add the combined effect to a damage roll and use the knockout blow rule.

 

[dragoner]

Thank you, I think I will do it that way in the future. Its much more elegant than the way I was doing it before.

Yes, that is an elegant way of handling that.

 

[hdan]

So in summary, for me, I'd use the sneak skill task (which might include saying I'm attack a spot where the target isn't armored for say a guard with some body armor but no head protection) and if successful add the effect to an attack roll and whether successful or not, add the combined effect to a damage roll and use the knockout blow rule.

I like it. I like it a lot.

I might be inclined to forgo the combat roll, and just use the appropriate combat skill + attribute as the Effect to add to the weapon damage, maybe assisted by the Stealth effect. That will allow a club, on average, to drop even a pretty END-heavy or helmeted target with a knockout blow.

 

[Giantmoth]

For a more in combat version of stealth and stabbing people, why not allow a particularly good roll bypass armour entirely? Getting into melee is dangerous enough, so a skilled assassin might just stab his mono-filament dagger right between the joints. Perhaps make it so that it requires an aim action or two, as you prepare for the strike from behind.

Stealth is risky business, and I subscribe to an attitude where the player should be properly rewarded for his risks rather than think he should have just spent those five rounds autofiring on the enemy from behind cover.

 

[F33D]

For a more in combat version of stealth and stabbing people, why not allow a particularly good roll bypass armour entirely?

Because you aren't getting past TL 15 combat armour with a dagger.

That's one reason. Probably lots of others.

 

[CosmicGamer]

For a more in combat version of stealth and stabbing people, why not allow a particularly good roll bypass armour entirely? Getting into melee is dangerous enough, so a skilled assassin might just stab his mono-filament dagger right between the joints. Perhaps make it so that it requires an aim action or two, as you prepare for the strike from behind.

It's a tough thing to completely simulate all the possibilities in a simple quick manner so that the game stays a role playing game and not a tabletop combat simulation with an overabundance of additional rules and/or tables for every possible weapon and armor combination, all the possible hit locations and what the task difficulties, DMs, and possible results are and so on.

I can see using the aim option in some way, but this would probably make the stealth task more difficult based on how much longer the attacker needs to be nearby and undetected.

For me, I prefer a quick GM situational DM and difficulty decision and not

sneak attack from behind with a knife to unarmored head (would a knife do much to the back of the skull?)
sneak attack from behind with a bat to unarmored head
sneak attack from behind with a shotgun to unarmored head
sneak attack from behind with a bat to someone wearing a cloth armor hoodie
sneak attack from behind with a bat to someone wearing full battle armor
sneak attack from behind with a knife to the weakest point of the neck joint of someone wearing full battle armor

and so on

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm rethinking things. While taking longer to find the week spot in the armor might be part of the stealth task, the actual ability to locate and effectively strike a key location seams to be more of an attack task. Would a character with a poor attribute DM, unskilled in combat and armor knowledge, using a not too effective improvised knife successfully stab someone from behind getting past the ribs to hit the heart just because they succeeded a stealth roll? A failed stealth check could still result in a character successfully outmaneuvering their opponent and stabbing them to death. Combat skill, characteristic DMs and other factors that go towards a characters ability to know how and where to successfully strike someone to "take them out" exist whether one is stealthy or not. Get in a good grapple and snap their neck. Face to face stab to the throat. Face to face baseball bat to the temple.

Rules:
"If some of the combatants are ready for combat and some are not, such as in an ambush"
Perhaps one option is that when sneaking up on someone the stealth task check is simply to determine if one side is caught unprepared and gets ambushed?

I can see using the aim option in some way. This could make the stealth task more difficult based on how much longer the attacker needs to be nearby and undetected. I always figured aiming could be outside and prior to the normal combat rounds. For example a sniper.

Now I point out the rule under task difficulties "A routine task might be hitting a prone victim in melee". Routine tasks have a +2DM. Maybe when a successful stealth check is made the task is easy or simple? Perhaps variable by the effect? This isn't too different from my task chain addition of the effect of the stealth task to the attack task. Note that for me, a total clutz with no skill might be so nervous that when they swing a bat it slips from their grip. Even a pro can have an off day and come up empty on rare occasions.

I was kinda liking this following idea even though my new above mentioned thoughts are that sometimes even a stealth attack might somehow miss.

I might be inclined to forgo the combat roll, and just use the appropriate combat skill + attribute as the Effect to add to the weapon damage

But then I crunched the numbers. Hope I got it right. Someone with no skill and even an average attribute with a dagger would be in the range of 0-5 damage. Not likely to be a one blow take out.
dagger (1d6+2)
1d6 avg = 3.5
3.5+2 = 5.5 avg dagger damage
5.5 -3 (unskilled) = 2.5 avg dagger damage for unskilled average ability person (without any task chain modifications)

Rule: "A character can only react to attacks that he is aware of." So as mentioned by others, the rules do allow for no dodging a stealthy attack.

Any armor issues such as finding the week spot in armor are true for stealth attacks, snipers, and even any half brained individual during combat would realize the guy just has a flak vest on but the rest of them is unprotected. So since this issue exists everywhere, I wouldn't address it only here with stealth attacks and instead address it as it's own separate issue to be resolved if needed. For me, the reduced task difficulty of the stealth attack and my personal option for aiming during stealth to give attack DMs will produce a higher effect to damage and simulate this well enough.

My current opinion: A stealth attack is not a miracle attack. You still need natural abilities and skills. You can still fail. A successful stealth attack ensures that you are undetected and unopposed so that the attack task is much easier.

So in summary, for me, I'd use the stealth skill task as needed for determining if an ambush/sneak attack is successful. A successful stealth check negates the opponents ability to react. Aiming during a successful stealth gives DMs to the attack task. I'd adjust the task difficulty for the attack from a successful stealth check and use the damage roll as is and use the knockout rule.

Other than possibly the aiming, I believe this is just doing it the way the rules are written.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Concerning intiative:

If some of the combatants are ready for combat and some are not, such as in an ambush, the prepared characters are considered to get an automatic 12 on their roll, giving them an Initiative of 12 + Dexterity DM. - Combat, Setup - Core Rules pg. 60