Attack question

[Skeezer]

I have a question about combat that the book doesn't seem to explain.

Can a character make more than one attack a round? Say if they have two pistols, or two melee weapons, or they want take more than one shot with a gun and not use auto or rapid-fire... how is this handled?

Looks to me like they only get one attack per round unless they use Auto-fire.

Since an attack is treated as a skill check, I was going to allow multiple attacks as if the character were performing multiple skill actions, and suffer the –2 DM penalty per number of extra attacks. They have to declare how many attacks they want to do before they attack.

 

[BP]

Welcome to the boards Skeezer!

An attack is a significant action - and there is only one per round. (Core Rulebook pg 60 and 61).

Firing two weapons 'simultaneously' could happen... The ref would apply DM's - unless ambidexterous, accuracy will suffer; aiming is not applicable; and, recoil is increased depending on weapons.

Also note that draw/reloading time - generally given in minor actions - may vary by weapon. The Will Smith / Mr. and Mrs. Smith / Transporter / Matrix style of two fisted armed combat is really most applicable to experts (so the skill level DMs may compensate).

An applicable DM to apply would be related to increasing Task Difficulty (pg 49).

Hope this helps - I'm sure you'll get a variety of useful responses on how this is handled...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

On page 50 of the TMB, there is a short paragraph about multiple actions. It imposes a -2 DM to all skill checks (like shooting) for each extra thing a character is doing.

Personally, I would require the character to aim at the same target with both weapons. If they want to aim at 2 separate targets, that is TWO multiple actions (firing a second weapon, aiming at another target) for a -4 DM to both attacks.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Sounds like a movie thing to me.

Most people throw a ball, shoot a handgun, and many other things using their predominate hand only. How much more difficult would tasks be with the 'off' hand? This differs from person to person. Since Traveller likes using 6 sided dice for deciding things, how about dex - 1d6 = dex of 'off' hand and use this to determine the dex DM for 'off' hand attacks?

Next, in my opinion, the chargen system has all training done to maximize overall skill using the predominant hand. The other hand is untrained. How about an overall -3 DM for skill (similar to untrained since no training has been done with this hand?). Maybe this is a bit harsh because the concepts of how to fight properly are still known. Go ahead and come up with your own value, perhaps the skill level -2 DM suggested.

So, at this point a SINGLE attack with the off hand would suffer a off hand skill penalty of -2 DM for lack of training and the off hand dex will possibly give a lower DM too.

Add in a penalty for trying to split your attention between two attacks at the same time instead of concentrating on one. A -2 DM to each of the simultaneous attack?

Now, are there two targets? Another -2DM for splitting attention between two targets?

Certainly you can not strike as hard with two melee weapons, so there possibly should be a negative damage DM too?

This is a lot of negative DM's though. Perhaps as it should be?

I know one objection. 'My character spent time training with the 'off' hand!' This would not be typical, and would be time not spent on normal training. Go ahead and subtract one skill level from the skill and reduce the off hand penalty by one. Notice something?

With a skill level of 2 and a -2 DM for 'off' hand, the total DM for off hand skill use would be 0.
If instead, time is spent on 'cross hand training'
Skill level would be 1 and the off hand penalty would be -1 resulting in a 0 DM for the off hand.

Wait, how can this be the same? The time spent improving the overall skill level is spent on off hand training instead, so the character is better skilled with the off hand but does not have the higher level of overall training in combat with this weapon. I like this because it helps explain why people don't normally spend time training in this way.

Now allow additional skill levels to be used toward 'multiple simultaneous weapon training' so that the character can negate those negative DMs.

Perhaps do some research? Try this.
Put a trashcan a good distance away but where you can still throw a paper ball into it when using just one hand. A skilled (+2) trash can basketball player with average dex would miss about 25% of the shots.
- Try to make the shot with the other hand and document the results.
- Throw two paper balls into a single trash can with both hands at the exact same time.
- Throw two paper balls into two trash with both hands at the exact same time.

Maybe try catching and throwing a baseball with opposite hands.

But this is a game and you may want more cinematic action in your games?

How about abilities based on skill level:
Skill level 1: Can make a single attack with the off hand
Skill level 3: Can make two attacks at the same time against a single target
Skill level 5: Can attack two targets at the same time.

Now back to complexity. For each level below the required level, add a degree of difficulty.

Just throwing some of my thoughts off the top of my head out there. This is nothing I've tested or even looked at too closely, so start tearing it apart.

Typically, I like to stay with the rules when possible, so I like what Rikki T. posted but might add the possibility of lower dex with the off hand too. Hmm, perhaps rolling a dex for both the right and left hand during chargen. The rules do allow for additional characteristics.

 

[rust]

By the way, professionals use both hands to fire a handgun, one hand to
hold the gun and the other hand to stabilize it.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

By the way, professionals use both hands to fire a handgun, one hand to
hold the gun and the other hand to stabilize it.

To me that is an "aimed shot" and gets the appropriate +DM from the book.

 

[BP]

On page 50 of the TMB, there is a short paragraph about multiple actions. It imposes a -2 DM to all skill checks (like shooting) for each extra thing a character is doing.

Personally, I would require the character to aim at the same target with both weapons. If they want to aim at 2 separate targets, that is TWO multiple actions (firing a second weapon, aiming at another target) for a -4 DM to both attacks.

Ah - that is the the proper answer! (It imposes more of a penalty than my simple Task Difficulty DM.)

Selecting two targets without aiming is a free action to me - one is just shooting 'at' two seperate targets. Aiming both weapons at one target should work as normal one minor action in same round. (Hmmm... I might apply a -1 DM (basically for the off hand) to one shot (the second) unless the character is specifically ambidextrous.)

As for aiming at two targets with a weapon each (without being an alien or having augments) in the same combat round would have to use the significant action as this is at least 2 minor actions. Applying further negative DMs would make this totally useless - skipping a significant action can be a pretty big penalty to begin with.

So instead of a +3 DM with a single weapon (one shot in 2 rounds) one can have +1 DM to one and +2 DM to another in next round (with minor action available in second round). Thus 2 shots in 2 rounds - so effectively giving up an attack round for a +1 DM. Sorta balances I think - added risk in first round versus damage advantage in second (if character survives!). Of course, there is that multiple action DM on top already - so other than being dramatic this would be silly and actually be giving up some DMs!

[Note: for Recoil and Heft initiative effects I would sum the two weapons.]

By the way, professionals use both hands to fire a handgun, one hand to hold the gun and the other hand to stabilize it.

Ah - that's why the criss-crossed arms in those 'realistic' action flicks :lol:

Funny, when I was a kid in scouts and at home we did a bit of target shooting with 22s. I could hit the target no more than 3/4 of the time (and not well). Then one day I just shot one handed from the hip and darn if I didn't do a whole lot better. I could hit the target every time! I even tried this several times two handed with two targets and was markedly successful (even from blind spins)... Of course, these weren't long range, moving targets in unknown locations, and I wasn't leaping through the air

 

[Skeezer]

I think I'll go with BP's suggestions. I'll increase the difficulty like I was doing – I didn't think about taking recoil and heft into account. I will do that next time.

We actually only had one combat in my game so far and still getting a hand of the rules it was a slow process – of course my players wanted to do super complex things to make it even harder. They do nothing straightforward.

One player is like... "I pick up a gun from a dead guy and shoot double handed, can I do that?"

Thumbing through the book for 5 minutes I'm like "It looks like you only get one attack." So the response I got was "That's lame!" and since I was sort of pushing a game on them to try – something other than f***ing D&D for once – I have to give into their desires to keep them interested.

Since a Traveller round is 6 seconds (like in d20 games – and it seems the Traveller (as far as actions and timing go) are similar), I thought it would be possible to use two weapons a round by throwing in some penalties for multiple actions.

 

[BP]

...getting a hand of the rules it was a slow process – of course my players wanted to do super complex things to make it even harder. They do nothing straightforward.

One player is like... "I pick up a gun from a dead guy and shoot double handed, can I do that?"

Thumbing through the book for 5 minutes I'm like "It looks like you only get one attack." ...

The rules are pretty good and also fairly comprehensive - they are also not laid out nor spelled out where they are easily grocked...

I follow the one minuite rule. During roleplay, rule lookups that take more than about a minute call for referee command decision. In this case I would have definitely told your players - 'Sure you can do that! Of course, its easier said than done...' - implying negative DM time! (Task difficulties make good fallback DMs if nothing else).

Especially when making adhoc rules that may be replaced later by more 'official' ones, I generally don't spell out the exact numbers and such. Just describe out the results of successful or unsuccessful rolls without explicit 'effect' definitions. This gives you more wiggle room later...

Hope this helps - and have fun!

 

[SSWarlock]

Welcome to the boards Skeezer!

An attack is a significant action - and there is only one per round. (Core Rulebook pg 60 and 61).

<snip>

Of course, this guy begs to differ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DpCellB_UQ

(Sorry, I know you're correct. The video is just too fun to not share. )

 

[BP]

...Of course, this guy begs to differ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DpCellB_UQ

(Sorry, I know you're correct. The video is just too fun to not share. )

Sweet! :shock:

So, let me get that straight - for a stationary target thats 24 shots with 2 reloads per round - or - 4 shots each for 4 targets per round

Yeah - that's what I'd call significant action (apparently there should also be DMs for supportive crowd presence..)

 

[BP]

Holy Cr@p!!! Check this one out...

That guy is like Gun Combat(Slug Pistol)-12!!!!

With 3 extra significant actions per round!

(And that might be REAL!)

 

[apoc527]

Yea, that's some impressive shooting. However, to do something impressive doesn't even require the fastest shooters in the world. I knew a guy who could draw and fire 5 accurate rounds to knock over 5 steel plates at about 10 meters in under 3 seconds. I saw him do it multiple times, in fact. I could never beat him, but even myself, after shooting handguns for just over a year, could do the same course of fire in 5 seconds (at my absolute best, that is). I started that year off sometimes doing the same course of fire in over 50 seconds, so improvement was rapid.

However, that's in an enclosed target range, with nobody shooting back at you (although the competition was head-to-head, each person with his own rack of 5 plates, so it was somewhat intense anyway). I used a Glock 19 and we limited ourselves to 6 rounds per magazine so revolvers could be competitive. With a reload, I was probably still in the sub-10 second range, meaning I could fire 12 shots with a reload in under 2 rounds. That simply can't be done in most RPGs, let alone Traveller.

However, I think it CAN be simulated, more or less fairly. First, you simply have to remember to give LOTS of +DMs for ideal conditions. I'd also call this kind of "trick" competition shooting something decidedly different than combat--maybe call it an opposed Gun Combat check even.

At any rate, I've never tried too seriously to allow players in games to fire that fast with any accuracy in a combat situation. That said, it can sometimes get frustrating when, in reality, a battle could be over in 6 seconds with many shots fired. Not really sure what to do about it.

The ONLY game that is remotely realistic is GURPS, which allows 3 shots per round, and 1 round is 1 second.

Oh, and for the record, since someone was talking about off-hand shooting, any shooter with his salt WILL TRAIN off-hand. ESPECIALLY if you take any of the numerous defensive shooting classes offered around the country (USA obviously). My dad's taken many courses and in several, they even practice shooting with the off-hand while laying on the floor, as if you'd been knocked over. Off-hand training is also common in IDPA (international defensive pistol association) matches, where the purpose is to simulate defensive shooting situations.

So, if the question is whether military and police train using the off-hand, the answer is a resounding YES barring negligent management.

(Plus, it's not that hard. We would sometimes switch it up and do off-hand, one-handed challenges with the plates. I could do it in about 12 seconds with my off-hand, one handed. Granted, I was better at it that many, but with a bit of practice, it's not that tough.)

 

[BP]

Well, yeah - I was being dramatic - those targets were probably positioned in exact places, so practice alone would allow shooting blind (making the mirror thing more of a trick).

Given physical electro-chemical nerve-reaction response times - that fastest shooting is instinct trained (i.e. there is actually not enough time for optical recognition and nerve feedback - I did experiements on this myself years back).

Still - want that guy on my side in a gunfight

With 6 seconds per combat round, my initial read on the MGT combat rules was each attack could represent mutliple shots - but this conflicts with the Automatic Weapons rules that break down number of rounds used. Heck, even with a bolt action rifle 2 to 3 shots per 6 seconds is not unrealistic after minimal training. For melee combat - each attack has to allow representing more than one blow, strike, etc. to make any kind of sense.

Unfortunately, handling all the things the combat system does and the task system (especially timing rules) within the context of a d6 system - I don't have anything better - so I'm basically sticking to the rules with occassional referee DMs for exceptional circumstances.

As to the off-hand - yeah anybody with skill is likely to have trained with both hands - so I'd give skill DMs regardless. Except, I mentioned when using both in the same round, I might give -1 DM to accommodate for off-hand shot (unless specifically ambidextrous). Under normal circumstances, the injury system of reduced stats generically accommodates injury to the primary shooting hand/arm.

Based on the original poster's post - I'd assume his players are likely to want to use every advantage in combat (ok- duh) and will likely almost always shoot double fisted - so he needs some balanced rule within the framework of the existing system. If players do it - so will NPCs - and keeping the line between roleplay versus simulation is the only way to avoid excessive complexity of rules.

[P.S. had a few beers tonight - so apply post DMs where appropriate...

]

 

[Paladin]

Holy Cr@p!!! Check this one out...

That guy is like Gun Combat(Slug Pistol)-12!!!!

With 3 extra significant actions per round!

(And that might be REAL!)

I got to see this guy in person. His show is INSANE. Was in awe the entire time at his speed.

 

[BP]

Gee - I might have an even harder time believing this in person - with no instant replay I wouldn't know he shot more than once!

Took a closer look at that holster - I think if he was on my side I'd prefer him on the right (and if he weren't on my side - I'd prefer to be in another fight :lol