Any computer assistance for this game yet?

[FreeTrav]

...And with the only two active development in Traveller being Mongoose and (barely) GURPS, why would anyone do a game aid for any other version? - and with the TLL restriction, that leaves GURPS as the only crowd that can do any development.

Actually, according to an MIB I know who says he knows Marc well, "Interstellar Wars" was the departing gift from SJ Games, and was allowed so there was something in under the 4th ed for the GURPS ATU. So any software being developed GURPS wise at least will have a finite (although large) information base to draw from/build on.

MGT shows no signs of stopping.

Which makes the situation even worse, because the only active development of Traveller material comes with a license that bars the kind of game-aid development that led to what's in Freelance Traveller's Computer Connection.

 

[Infojunky]

One of the big things is pretty much nobody is writing game apps any more. The Gurps crowd is about the last group doing any development for RPGs any more.

But how much of that is because of restrictive licenses?

Not much I would guess, most of the Traveller specific software was all written by fans without much in the way of permission/support from the companies in question.

Didn't I see a comment earlier that the TLL bars even free (both senses) software?

There not much in the OGL, the logo license is a different critter. But I would bet IF some software was written and it was distributed free there would be very little bitching from the parties involved.

And with the only two active development in Traveller being Mongoose and (barely) GURPS, why would anyone do a game aid for any other version? - and with the TLL restriction, that leaves GURPS as the only crowd that can do any development.

Actually the TLL is irrelevant, or I should say it isn't a issue. The issue is that nobody has the time or enthusiasm to take on such a large coding project.

As for edition specific software, the most often written type, sector generators are pretty much edition blind od generally there isn't a issue there.

 

[FreeTrav]

But how much of that is because of restrictive licenses?

Not much I would guess, most of the Traveller specific software was all written by fans without much in the way of permission/support from the companies in question.

Not much in the way of explicit permission or support, no, but also no publicly-stated restrictions or limitations. IIRC, GURPS was actually the first to go public with restrictions on software development.

Didn't I see a comment earlier that the TLL bars even free (both senses) software?

There not much in the OGL, the logo license is a different critter. But I would bet IF some software was written and it was distributed free there would be very little bitching from the parties involved.

Perhaps, perhaps not - I suspect it would depend on how unnecessary it made having an appropriate rule book.

And with the only two active development in Traveller being Mongoose and (barely) GURPS, why would anyone do a game aid for any other version? - and with the TLL restriction, that leaves GURPS as the only crowd that can do any development.

Actually the TLL is irrelevant, or I should say it isn't a issue. The issue is that nobody has the time or enthusiasm to take on such a large coding project.

Are all of the projects worth doing inherently 'large'? Certainly some of the ones I'd like most to see have the potential to become quite large - but at the same time, there are worthwhile programs that don't necessarily have to be large. My own Word Generator is an example of that; it took more time to build the data table files than it did to code the program.

Also... why is the TLL irrelevant/a non-issue? The idea here is that we're discussing 'software for Mongoose Traveller', isn't it? My understanding was that the words 'for Traveller' defined the domain of the TLL, and that 'Mongoose Traveller' (as contrasted with GDW Traveller or GURPS Traveller) defined the range of the TLL. That would seem to me to make the TLL specifically relevant.

As for edition specific software, the most often written type, sector generators are pretty much edition blind od generally there isn't a issue there.

And there's one program in that particular field that sets a gold standard: Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC. Which, thanks to DOSBox and Apple's decision to make the Mac an Intel-based platform, now runs - and runs well - on any of the common platforms. And at least one person actually took the time and invested the effort in blackboxing a web version of it, as well.

 

[Infojunky]

But how much of that is because of restrictive licenses?

Not much I would guess, most of the Traveller specific software was all written by fans without much in the way of permission/support from the companies in question.

Not much in the way of explicit permission or support, no, but also no publicly-stated restrictions or limitations. IIRC, GURPS was actually the first to go public with restrictions on software development.

Yes they did, but Steve was an early adopter of the technical aspects of RPGs. And as such he formulated a policy. A policy that has gotten much looser in the past few years. But it is a Policy and it is publicly stated. Which is the major problem with Mongoose's "policy".

Didn't I see a comment earlier that the TLL bars even free (both senses) software?

There not much in the OGL, the logo license is a different critter. But I would bet IF some software was written and it was distributed free there would be very little bitching from the parties involved.

Perhaps, perhaps not - I suspect it would depend on how unnecessary it made having an appropriate rule book.

Yep.

( Whole Buncha clipped stuff)

As for size, yes your right they can be all sizes.

As for the TLL, it only applies if you include the Traveller Logo... And it is in places in conflict with the OGL, both of which have never seen a rigorous court test so they are a quasi-gentleman's agreement, that neither of the sub-licensee's want to test in that then Hasbro might get drawn in to shut down both offending parties.

I am not saying that one should produce then distribute a piece of software without consulting Mongoose and/or Marc. What I am saying there is very little within the current Mongoose "Cannon" that needs software, thus most likely any process that requires software support is probably covered by Marc's fairuse policy.

And if by chance you need to write within Mongoose's Cannon, I would say write it then consult with them. Their stance is probably different whether or not your going to charge for it.

I will point out that the only "Commercial" Traveller software is sold through BITS.

And there's one program in that particular field that sets a gold standard: Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC. Which, thanks to DOSBox and Apple's decision to make the Mac an Intel-based platform, now runs - and runs well - on any of the common platforms. And at least one person actually took the time and invested the effort in blackboxing a web version of it, as well.

My G4 Powerbook ran it just fine under DosBox. The issue I had running it on a Mac was on my intel Mac. The INS key workaround on the Apple keyboard didn't work.

 

[GamerDude]

Clarification... by "GURPS Software" I meant Character Generators like GURPS Character Assistant. I have no idea as to what SJGames policy is for anything else.

 

[Infojunky]

Clarification... by "GURPS Software" I meant Character Generators like GURPS Character Assistant. I have no idea as to what SJGames policy is for anything else.

That's ok, Steve makes his online policy very clear and easy to find. Just take a Gander here.

 

[Bobson]

And with the only two active development in Traveller being Mongoose and (barely) GURPS, why would anyone do a game aid for any other version? - and with the TLL restriction, that leaves GURPS as the only crowd that can do any development.

Actually the TLL is irrelevant, or I should say it isn't a issue. The issue is that nobody has the time or enthusiasm to take on such a large coding project.

Depends what you consider large. I've already written, for the game I'm in, two highly useful PHP scripts - one vastly simplifies trading (checkboxes for each keyword for the planet, put in a tonnage and a raw 3d6 roll, and it'll calculate how much it bought/sold for), one speeds the generation of new planets (roll 2d6 several times, and one 1d6, and it'll do all the lookups for you). I intend to integrate them together at some point, so that I can easily generate a random world, sell our previous cargo, and find out what we can buy, all by going around and having people roll, and entering the unmodified rolls straight into the app.

I'd love to make this publicly available, but I can't "publish software based on the current edition of Traveller" without permission. I intend to email and ask about it, but I first wanted to see if there was any other software out there which had already been approved...

 

[Bobson]

I intend to email and ask about it, but I first wanted to see if there was any other software out there which had already been approved...

And approval was granted!

I present the Trade app: http://bobson.net16.net/trav/trade.php for vastly speeding up speculative trading.
And I present the Planet Generator app: http://bobson.net16.net/trav/planet.php for avoiding many table lookups when rolling up a new planet.

They are still very much works in process, but they're stable, and I've been using them successfully for a while now. If you run into any odd quirks, post or message me. If it gives you data that seems flat-out wrong, post or message me. If you have ideas for how to make it better, post or message me. If you really like them or have suggestions for other things I can automate, po... you get the idea by now

I'll post when I add new features, too.

Enjoy!

 

[dreamingbadger]

Cool! will you be able to add a UWP to the world generator?

 

[Bobson]

Cool! will you be able to add a UWP to the world generator?

Added

 

[FreeTrav]

I present the Trade app: http://bobson.net16.net/trav/trade.php for vastly speeding up speculative trading.
And I present the Planet Generator app: http://bobson.net16.net/trav/planet.php for avoiding many table lookups when rolling up a new planet.

They are still very much works in process, but they're stable, and I've been using them successfully for a while now. If you run into any odd quirks, post or message me. If it gives you data that seems flat-out wrong, post or message me. If you have ideas for how to make it better, post or message me. If you really like them or have suggestions for other things I can automate, po... you get the idea by now

Looks good! I'm going to list both of these in Freelance Traveller's Computer Connection. I do, however, need a name to credit them to; pm here or write to editor@freelancetraveller.com, please...

Some suggestions:

1. A "Switchboard page" (most likely at .../trav/index.html), so that I can just memorize or bookmark a single URL, and from there be able to choose which of your apps (present or future) to use.
2. For the trade app: Allow the user to key in the UWP of the current and target worlds, and have the program automatically calculate and enter/select the appropriate trade codes.
3. Standalone - i.e., not web-based - versions of these for use on one's own computer when net.connection is unavailable. I'd recommend using a free cross-platform language like perl, python, rexx, euphoria, lua, or tcl/tk. PHP may be most like perl, but I won't swear to it.

 

[dreamingbadger]

Cool! will you be able to add a UWP to the world generator?

Added

Schplendid! now if you have it in green I'll take one with me seriously top work.

 

[Infojunky]

And with the only two active development in Traveller being Mongoose and (barely) GURPS, why would anyone do a game aid for any other version? - and with the TLL restriction, that leaves GURPS as the only crowd that can do any development.

Actually the TLL is irrelevant, or I should say it isn't a issue. The issue is that nobody has the time or enthusiasm to take on such a large coding project.

Depends what you consider large.

Large in the expenditure of time.... Though to be quite honest large is a subjective term.

 

[Infojunky]

I intend to email and ask about it, but I first wanted to see if there was any other software out there which had already been approved...

And approval was granted!

Outstanding!

You did what I was inarticulately trying to state, you write what you need for your game. Then if you feel the need to distribute contact Mongoose.

I still feel that I am not explaining this right, I am not advocating violating Mongoose's or Marc's IP. I am advocating that the we as fans need to write what we feel is needed for our games then worry about distribution.

 

[Bobson]

Some suggestions:

1. A "Switchboard page" (most likely at .../trav/index.html), so that I can just memorize or bookmark a single URL, and from there be able to choose which of your apps (present or future) to use.
2. For the trade app: Allow the user to key in the UWP of the current and target worlds, and have the program automatically calculate and enter/select the appropriate trade codes.
3. Standalone - i.e., not web-based - versions of these for use on one's own computer when net.connection is unavailable. I'd recommend using a free cross-platform language like perl, python, rexx, euphoria, lua, or tcl/tk. PHP may be most like perl, but I won't swear to it.

1. Added. http://bobson.net16.net (or http://bobsontools.no-ip.org) has an listing of all the tools - right now it's just those to, but I'm going to try and get more tools I've made up there now that I have a website.
2. Interesting idea, and a step I'm going to need to take if I want to integrate the two usefully. I'll try to implement it.
3. I'm not sure how feasible this is, although I can certainly see the utility. PHP is very close to perl, but the HTML/interface part would have to be completely rewritten. I'll certainly consider it, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to manage it. It's much easier said than done :/

 

[wombatzoner]

I intend to email and ask about it, but I first wanted to see if there was any other software out there which had already been approved...

And approval was granted!

Could you elaborate on how you phrased your request? The reason I ask is I e-mailed Mongoose requesting permission to release some Traveller computer aids I've written and was told they cannot give permission for this due to licensing restrictions. Needless I'm more than a little confused at this point.

 

[Bobson]

I intend to email and ask about it, but I first wanted to see if there was any other software out there which had already been approved...

And approval was granted!

Could you elaborate on how you phrased your request? The reason I ask is I e-mailed Mongoose requesting permission to release some Traveller computer aids I've written and was told they cannot give permission for this due to licensing restrictions. Needless I'm more than a little confused at this point.

I started the conversation with this:

Hello,

I've been working on some PHP tools for the Traveller game I'm in, and I'm curious what would be required for me to be able to post them publicly. The two scripts I have so far are a trading page (select the descriptors for the buying and selling worlds, and see what goods would be good to trade) and a planet generation page (input the results of all the unmodified 2d6 rolls, and it'll tell you what the world is, and what descriptors it has). I'm also working on a ship-building spreadsheet, but I haven't finished that yet.

Noteably, I am specifically not allowed to use any of the Traveller trademarks, including the "Traveller" name itself. It could be that that was your problem, or that you used too much source material directly, or something. It could also be that the licensing hadn't been worked out when you asked and they subsequently got it nailed down. All I can suggest is try again.

-------------------

In other news, I fixed a few major bugs with the trade spreadsheet (it wasn't factoring broker ability into selling, and there were problems when adding extra items), and added contact information and links to both of them. I've also realized just how useful being able to paste in a UWP to the trade spreadsheet will be, and that's the next thing I'm going to add. I'll probably start a new thread for updates and feedback once I do that, rather than keep hijacking this thread.

 

[wombatzoner]

And approval was granted!

Could you elaborate on how you phrased your request? The reason I ask is I e-mailed Mongoose requesting permission to release some Traveller computer aids I've written and was told they cannot give permission for this due to licensing restrictions. Needless I'm more than a little confused at this point.

I started the conversation with this:

Hello,

I've been working on some PHP tools for the Traveller game I'm in, and I'm curious what would be required for me to be able to post them publicly. The two scripts I have so far are a trading page (select the descriptors for the buying and selling worlds, and see what goods would be good to trade) and a planet generation page (input the results of all the unmodified 2d6 rolls, and it'll tell you what the world is, and what descriptors it has). I'm also working on a ship-building spreadsheet, but I haven't finished that yet.

Noteably, I am specifically not allowed to use any of the Traveller trademarks, including the "Traveller" name itself. It could be that that was your problem, or that you used too much source material directly, or something. It could also be that the licensing hadn't been worked out when you asked and they subsequently got it nailed down. All I can suggest is try again.

I understand and I'm not asking you to read Mongoose's mind on the matter or anything like that.

As to my e-mail exchanges with Mongoose about this, they never got to a level of detail about use of the Traveller logo or how much source material was used.

I originally sent Mongoose an e-mail back in early June asking about their policy on releasing non-commercial utilities for Traveller. The reply was "At this time, none of the licenses cover this kind of project, I am afraid."

After I saw your post that you had gotten permission to release your software, I assumed there had been some change in the matter. I sent another e-mail asking for permission to release, on a non-commercial free of charge basis, a trade calculator I'd written and that I would happily comply with any requirements they had for attribution and disclaimers. The reply, in its entirety was:

"I am afraid we cannot give permission for this just yet, due to licensing restrictions. However, please keep an eye on our forums in case this changes."

Cue confused stare at my inbox.

I do understand that if Mongoose's license for Traveller from the rights-holder does not cover software, then that's it, and no hard feelings. They have to abide by the terms of their contract and I respect that. I'm also happy someone has been able to get permission to release software for the game. I would be even happier if I could figure out the rhyme or reason to it.

 

[Infojunky]

Gee. it is starting to look is web apps are ok, but stand alone utilities are problematic.

This is starting to sound like in app needs to be written under "proto" MgT..... I.e. under earlier editions...

Or to translate Marc needs to be smacked with the question.

One might try to Email Marc and ask him.....

Email: farfuture@gmail.com

Or BITS as they still have a license.

 

[wombatzoner]

Gee. it is starting to look is web apps are ok, but stand alone utilities are problematic.

That's one possible interpretation but I can't see how where the software runs could make that big of a difference.

This is starting to sound like in app needs to be written under "proto" MgT..... I.e. under earlier editions...

Or to translate Marc needs to be smacked with the question.

One might try to Email Marc and ask him.....

Email: farfuture@gmail.com

Or BITS as they still have a license.

I may not be following your thinking here. The FFE Fair Use Policy is reasonably clear:

"If your activity is non-commercial, you can make copies to support playing the game, you can scan copies for your computer, you can write short programs and spreadsheets which automate processes within the game."