Ancient(s)

BP said:
msprange said:
... Anyone who thinks canon should not change over the (many) past years is going to be in one one hell of a shock over the next few years. . .

Sweet!

(So maybe the Ancients aren't so ancient - just one big Imperium wide practical joke that's gotten outta hand :) )


Then based on architypical family roles, perhaps Grandfather is better named "Uncle" (ie cigar smoking, dynamite fishing, joy buzzer and whoopie cushion type Uncles). I like it.
 
captainjack23 said:
Thinking about this, dare I suggest that providing a useful and easy coverall for structural (with regard to the background/backstory) blips is also useful, for those who don't want to be bothered with bigger stuff ?
In my view it should not be too difficult to provide answers that can be
true, but also leave the option that they are not true. We know this from
our real world history, where there are quite often different and even
conflicting versions of an important historical event, so the same could
be true for the history of the OTU.
And then those who want an answer from the authors could use it, and
those who prefer more freedom could write it off as a hypothesis and in-
troduce their own favourite explanation.
 
captainjack23 said:
How many or at least what kind oddities are the ancients blamed for ? And how many of these are due to secondary sources ? My feeling is that while the Ancients may have been overapplied, the main part of the problem is that overall, they were intended to be an unexplainable mystery and intentionally added as such.

The large number of asteroid belts has been blamed on "The Ancients" and specifically their final war. There are also cases like Victoria/Spinward Marches.

The spread of Humaniti is explicitly their work, as is the creation of the Vargr.

Based on the increased presence of asteroid belts, the existence of recognized "Ancients sites" should number well below the traditional 20 x 20, but Droyne and Chirper colonies, Humaniti homeworlds, and unoccupied Ancients sites are still *very* numerous.

That's just the primary and "close secondary" sources. Those are, however, enough to get a lot of folks up to saturation.

So, one more question; to what extent (once past the lazy applications to solve various problems) would traveller benefit or lose from a mystery without an explicit official answer?

The only reason the mystery of the Empress Wave didn't cause more annoyance was because TNE is fairly high on the list of "Traveller Editions the Fanbase Loves to Hate".

("Did you say TNE? Out Loud? LALALA! I HATE VIRUS! I can't HEAR you say anything good! Twenty-sided dice suck! LALALA!")

The problem with unresolved mysteries is that some bright bulb around the table is going to want to "solve" them, and many a Ref is going to want to let them.

Loren Wiseman has said on a few occasions that writing and publishing Adventure 12 was a mistake by GDW, in that it sapped "the Ancients" of the mystery that was part of the charm of the CT setting.
 
GypsyComet said:
the traditional 20 x 20,
?? :? ???

The only reason the mystery of the Empress Wave didn't cause more annoyance was because TNE is fairly high on the list of "Traveller Editions the Fanbase Loves to Hate".

("Did you say TNE? Out Loud? LALALA! I HATE VIRUS! I can't HEAR you say anything good! Twenty-sided dice suck! LALALA!")

Oh good. I thought something was missing here...;) By the way, you missed "DAVE NIELSEN IS THE ANTICHRIST IN A SANTA HAT"

I guess the thing for me about why the EW was so "meh" was that it was such a high level mystery, with little chance for the players to dig up stuff, as it were.
The problem with unresolved mysteries is that some bright bulb around the table is going to want to "solve" them, and many a Ref is going to want to let them.

Which isn't a problem in the actual play campaign -the problem seems to come when its an implicitly unsolved part of the setting.

Loren Wiseman has said on a few occasions that writing and publishing Adventure 12 was a mistake by GDW, in that it sapped "the Ancients" of the mystery that was part of the charm of the CT setting.

Obviously, then, Adventure 12 is a piece of Zhodani propaganda or a disinfo operation; what, I wonder was their motivation for discouraging interest in real research....... :twisted:
 
msprange said:
Anyone who thinks canon should not change over the (many) past years is going to be in one one hell of a shock over the next few years. . .

Oh good. It's about time things got shaken up (just be prepared for massive complaints about it from some quarters).
 
EDG said:
msprange said:
Anyone who thinks canon should not change over the (many) past years is going to be in one one hell of a shock over the next few years. . .

Oh good. It's about time things got shaken up (just be prepared for massive complaints about it from some quarters).

Change for the sake of change is always going to be unappreciated.

Since I'm actually playing the game, my biggest complaints will be in regards to stuff I have to take a belt sander or chainsaw to if I want to use it. Hard to use is hard to justify buying.
 
GypsyComet said:
Change for the sake of change is always going to be unappreciated.

Usually I find that the people who think it's just done "for the sake of change" are the ones who have the least understanding of why the change is happening.

If it changes beyond what is useful for you, don't use it and don't buy it - it's that simple. But until and unless you buy a license to change it yourself, you're going to have to put up with it - Mongoose have paid for the IP, so they're the ones who do what they want with it. And if they have a plan for it, then you can either enjoy the ride or you can just get off the train and do something else.

That's usually what everyone else does in other RPGs - they just say "oh well, it ain't for me anymore" and move on. With Traveller though it seems we have to put up with a lot of disgruntled, irate, people who complain endlessly about how they can't buy more books. It's very strange.

Oh, and it's 12 kids who had 12 more kids each, not 20.
 
So I actually dragged out Adventure 12 and have been looking thru it.

Real world stuff first: it really is just another "here's a ship" "heres a solution" scenario; once on booard the players don't do much but listen. Its a style that has produced some pretty good SF literature, but some pretty tedious RPG modules. Here's where it really fails: Page 34 [SPOILER WARNING OF SORTS]*. "after a suitable period of exploration (and without warning), the adventurers find themselves completely immobilized." fast forward the player statues to the throne room in 6-7 sentences, where Grandfather wanders off and a servitor "...explains the secrets of the ancients, warns that the portal which they found must now be closed, and decides that they can be returned to the larger universe before the portal is closed."

Poof. Kind of a letdown, but it is hard to see how the whole mystery could be resolved by the players themselves, particularly in the teeny book format; possibly in a tailored campaign book, the like of which has developed in the RPG world since then. Oh well.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, let's pretend that it isn't just an over edited version of a much longer story, and see what we can make of it.




*If you really don't know the secret of the ancients, congratulations on buying traveller for the first time. Hopefully its going to be better dealt with this time around.
 
EDG said:
GypsyComet said:
Change for the sake of change is always going to be unappreciated.

Usually I find that the people who think it's just done "for the sake of change" are the ones who have the least understanding of why the change is happening.

Two words: Droyne Feathers.
 
EDG said:
GypsyComet said:
Change for the sake of change is always going to be unappreciated.



That's usually what everyone else does in other RPGs - they just say "oh well, it ain't for me anymore" and move on.
You don't play D&D , do you ? or RQ ? Or WOD ? Or have friends who are fans of Trek or Star wars movies/books/comics/actionfigures ? It's hardly unique.
With Traveller though it seems we have to put up with a lot of about how they can't buy more books. It's very strange.

You forgot to mention disgruntled, irate, people who complain endlessly about their pet peeves with the system, or how it doesn't meet their personal expectations of accuracy, continuity, authorial direction or worldview. We have those too. But so does every other genre with a big long term fandom. But possibly I'm just a disgruntled irate person.

But that has less to do with the ancients. So, onward.
 
GypsyComet said:
EDG said:
GypsyComet said:
Change for the sake of change is always going to be unappreciated.

Usually I find that the people who think it's just done "for the sake of change" are the ones who have the least understanding of why the change is happening.

Two words: Droyne Feathers.


???? :? ?????? Again, dammit. You've been doing this for a while, haven't you ? ;)
 
captainjack23 said:
GypsyComet said:
EDG said:
Usually I find that the people who think it's just done "for the sake of change" are the ones who have the least understanding of why the change is happening.

Two words: Droyne Feathers.


???? :? ?????? Again, dammit. You've been doing this for a while, haven't you ? ;)

Look at the art for the Droyne in the MGT book.

While we're at it, how many fingers do Aslan have, and WHERE are the Vargr located again?

EDG said:
Oh, and it's 12 kids who had 12 more kids each, not 20.

You aren't helping, you know.
:D
 
Hold on. Someone appears to be having an argument without us!

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38958

HOW DARE THEY!
:wink:
 
So then. Assuming that actual editorial discussion of Adventure 12 is satisfied, lets move on to the discussion of what it may mean for the setting.

As I suspected, I found some of the subtext clues I remembered:

"the true history of the ancients is best known to one Ancient the one who started the ancients civilization,, and who is miraculously still alive today.
The following is the story that he can relate" (p42)

Okay, not a smoking gun, Far from it. But....it doesn't say, "this is the true secret of the ancients"; it also makes a point that there is no way to verify this story. Interesting. It isn't presented in the context of the library data, or in the ex cathedra style of background data, but rather, "this is what you are told". Finally, it isn't even from Grandfather, who isn't even in the room for most of this.

Then after this speech, they get sent home, and the door is locked so GF won't be bothered.

So, the conundrum is this: if a genocidal utterly pragmatic god wants to be left alone, why doesn't he just kill them and close the portal ? What's three or four more more lives among the billions he has massacred ? Why isn;t his ship better safed against misuse, or bringing nosy-parker lesser beings to his doorstep; he is after all a "super genius" who is able to instantly recognises who they are and how they got there......really ?

If nothing else, even if he has had a sudden coversion to pacificsm and respect for all life, the power to erase memories exists in the imperium and the Zhodanis -heck, it almost exists tody- so why not release them with shiny clean memories of somthing else ? Or just keep them as pets ? Or just ask them to cross their hearts and promise not to tell ?

We know a few things -first, his robots are capable of deciding things and not bothering to consult him; second, he still interferes with the lesser races outside the pocket; third, he's still watching the droyne, and has at least enough affection for them to preserve a breeding population, and to allow them to rediscover civilization.

So.....the droyne needed something expunged from their culture -so thoroughly that it required near complete genocide or exile from the universe to hide it.

We have an indirect unverifiable story from one of GFs servitors (to be fair, probably from GF directly); and a glaring internal contradiction of a basic rule of coverups: -if you want to keep a secret, don't tell anyone, and if they fnind out....well, what kind of men tell no tales ? So why let it out ? Because it draws attention away from either the real story, or from something far more important; something important enough to squash billions of sentients to cover up; something that still is a big deal; and something that the current races may be approaching unless they get distracted.

So, The Secret of the Ancients is a stalking horse perhaps; or just disinformation intended to hopelessly muddy the waters of ancients research; or, he's meddling again, or is an agent of something that is shaping charted space and wants this "secret" known, as part of the project.

Actually, the more I look at the contextual stuff from the adventure, the more I wonder if it really wasn't intended to be definitive, rather than just a quick fix to a mystery. This is me though. I'm kind of gullible that way. ;)
 
EDG said:
With Traveller though it seems we have to put up with a lot of disgruntled, irate, people who complain endlessly about how they can't buy more books. It's very strange.

Yeah, those TNE fans are the latest on this wagon with the 1248 and TNE stuff sunsetted and out of print, I see. Just use the old stuff and quit bitchin' as one sage suggested. ;)
 
GypsyComet said:
EDG said:
Oh, and it's 12 kids who had 12 more kids each, not 20.

You aren't helping, you know.
:D

No, it is 20 x 20ish . I looked it up " He had twenty children, and each of those children had about twenty of their own." (Adv 12 p 42).

I now perform the Vilani ceremonial dance of making correct reference to obscure archival material.
 
GypsyComet said:
Hold on. Someone appears to be having an argument without us!

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38958

HOW DARE THEY!
:wink:

Crap. Its hard enough being pretentious, snarky and pedantically condescending in one thread.........

Perhaps we should jump in with a scathing reference to the first printing of CT HG and how it clearly supercedes and is far better than any johnny come lately second edition, let alone a half assed resissue ?

(please read the above with LOTS of :) :) :) :) :) )
 
GypsyComet said:
Hold on. Someone appears to be having an argument without us! ...

Is that allowed? Which rule covers that?
- bet its in that darn Adventure 12 everyone keeps raving about!
 
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