AM I DAFT OR.....

[Natxomann]

First and foremost , the main part of the Ranger/Anla'Shok fleet is composed by small and medium ships (like the Whitestar , Liandra or Enfalli) , that can be employed to accomplish the main missions of the Rangers : peacekeeping , patrol , intelligence , antipiracy and the like , BUT sometimes , the Anla'Shok must face a powerful military force in open combat , and their typically small ships aren't good or capable enought against capital ships (such as the Omega-class destroyers during the EA civil war) , and the response to this was the VCD , which is so effective as ship/base killer that the mere presence of one or two can force an oponent to retreat or surrender .
To do this you don´t need a powerful , massive fleet of VCDs , you only need a small fleet of those (along with a certain number of more conventional capital ships) to support the rest of the Ranger's forces .
It is also debatable that the ISA could field a great number of capital ships . The econimical cost of every VCD should be terrific , and the number of crewmembers required by capital ships should be a great weight for the supposedly small numbers of the Anla'Shok

 

[lastbesthope]

Sorry guys, another long one here but weapons and naval vessels are two things I know a fair bit about . . . Please read on.

I agree that the VCD is somewhat defenseless after it fires it's main gun, apart from it's fighter screen and it's rather clever armour. however, you aren't going to use the main gun in every situation. (Though you may not want the enemy thinking that.) Every time we have seen the main gun fired has, as I recall, either been in testing (A Call to Arms) or as a last ditch if-we-don't-do-this-we're-definitely-done-for style maneuvre.

Compare it if you will to the closest modern day equivalent that I can think of. The aircraft carrier. Unless you have a handy airbase nearby (which the US often do, bunch of rabid colonials that they are ) it is amongst the best solutions in long distance force projection. I admit my knowledge of the proper big carriers is somewhat limited as here in the UK our carriers are somewhat dinky (but who needs runway when you've had VS/VTOL for decades) so most of what I say comes from carriers smaller than the Nimitz class, et al. But I reckon it holds true for most carriers. Most of a carrier's force projection is due to the prodigious number of fighters they carry, as the VCD carries a large number of fighter craft. Unlike the VCD, modern day carriers don't have a "big main gun" equivalent, nor do they have a vast number of offensive and defensive weapons other than their fighter screen (I know they have some, but not nearly enough to hold their own in a fight) but they are still considered a valuable asset in the art of warfare, even though they must be supported and often defended by other, smaller vessels.

I think the VCD is a great ship, obviously you don't want to go firing your main weapon off willy-nilly (as is true so often in life) but when the excrement hits the air circulation device, you'd rather have the option of firing it as not have the option at all. Due to it's array of defensive and offensive weaponry, the VCD is more capable of solo ops on a wider spectrum of missions than our modern day aircraft carriers. But like them, can be made more effective when operating at the centre of, or as part of a fleet of similar and/or smaller vessels.

If you view the VCD solely as it's main gun then yes it is a bit rubbish. Sorry to cross genre but even the Death Star could run away once it had fired.

If you take into account all the additional capability the VCD has besides the main gun, and the sheer psychological effect of having an unfriendly one show up in your system or near your battle fleet knowing what the main gun can do if they decide to use it.

Imagine if you will a new class of contemporary-ish naval vessel, an order of magnitude larger than the current biggest carriers. Give it a massive fighter screen (JSF, FA/18, F-15, F-16, basically any aircraft or helicopters you feel like, even a C-130 if you want) defensive weaponry e.g Sea Wolf/PAAMS, Goalkeeper. Some artillery,, Exocet, Storm Shadow cruise missiles (which kick Tomahawk in the backside but you can have them instead if you want). All well and good, very conventional so far. Not much use too close into the coast, but then neither is a VCD in a dense asteroid field.

Now give this new super carrier an EMP blast device, against which it, and all it's friendly ships/aircraft are protected, but the enemy are not. Not a good "main gun analogy but sufficiently close to illustrate my point". This EMP will disable all electronics (other than aforementioned protected systems) within a suitably large range, thus rendering your enemy's hardware useless. Downside is, if you use it, the power surge required will drain all systems of power for an hour. Now tell me honestly that every Military Chief of Staff wouldn't want one
(with matching velour trim :lol: )

Lastbesthope
"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station!"
Moff Tarkin, on the Death Star, SW IV : A New Hope

 

[CARTMAG]

the problem is Last Best hope with that Huge Drawback of having no power for an hour... id say NO general worth is Salt would want it.... yes it may be powerfull but id say having no power is kindof a drawback...... ok yes under thos surconstances yes it might be an asset when your alone.. but as I said before it would be a major drawback in the large battles that ships of that size are ment for.... and the truth is that if the VCD is suposed to be a carrier of a type.. its a major problem because if it needs to use the big gun.. and if you remember in Crusade it was used WAY too often..... and that ship gets distroied thoes fighters are SOL..... thats why I say on the whole it realy isnt cost effective to build a ship around a single weapon like the VCD is.... cost efective wise... IT ISNT...

 

[shalazar_bation]

The only thing I want to know about this whole thread.....

What the heck is "DAFT"!?!? :lol:

Shalazar
The Daft.... I think, maybe... not sure....

 

[Eryx]

Daft. Its (usually) an English term meaning stupid.

 

[shalazar_bation]

OOOHHHHWWWwwwwwwww...... Then Yes, I am Daft..... about certain things.... Like weman!

:twisted:


Shalazar
Just askin' for a beatin'

 

[Anonymous]

the problem is Last Best hope with that Huge Drawback of having no power for an hour... id say NO general worth is Salt would want it.... yes it may be powerfull but id say having no power is kindof a drawback...... ok yes under thos surconstances yes it might be an asset when your alone.. but as I said before it would be a major drawback in the large battles that ships of that size are ment for.... and the truth is that if the VCD is suposed to be a carrier of a type.. its a major problem because if it needs to use the big gun.. and if you remember in Crusade it was used WAY too often..... and that ship gets distroied thoes fighters are SOL..... thats why I say on the whole it realy isnt cost effective to build a ship around a single weapon like the VCD is.... cost efective wise... IT ISNT...

Argument against a ship built around a weapon: A-10 Thunderbolt a.k.a. Warthog. This tank killer was nicknamed the 'Devil's Cross' by the Red Army as that's what it looked like when it was diving in attack. It is probably the premier airborne anti-tank platform in the US inventory.

I think, at this moment, that we are just going to end up disagreeing. However, in the interests of continued discussion, I think you and I disagree with the statement that the VCD is actually just a single weapon. You see a big gun that leaves the ship extremely vulnerable, but I see an added capability on top of an all ready formidable ship.

As for the size and crew requirements of the ship making it hard for the Rangers to support, well, I have a feeling that they Rangers probably have more applicants then they know what to do with. As a result of this, and the need for more Rangers, the facilities to train them would be increased as well. Maybe the Rangers gain a purely Naval arm in the 20 years after the IA's formation.

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

BTW, that last was me. Oops.

 

[Chobbly]

I think, at this moment, that we are just going to end up disagreeing. However, in the interests of continued discussion, I think you and I disagree with the statement that the VCD is actually just a single weapon. You see a big gun that leaves the ship extremely vulnerable, but I see an added capability on top of an all ready formidable ship.

Thinking back to the B5 episode where the VCD (or their class) was first proposed (Movements of Fire and Shadow, IIRC), the VCD is essential. The White Stars that have survived the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War can't do everything.

Plus, IMHO, the fact that the ship posesses a primary weapon which is arguably the most powerful beam weapon (with its faults) this side of the Rim isn't the chief benefit of the VCD. It is the fact that the VCD exists in the first place. It gives the ISA, when combined with smaller craft as pickets or support, the ability to take an opponent down, battlecruisers and all. Not politically correct, peace-loving or trusting? Absolutely. Regardless of whether the main gun takes a minute to recharge or not, the VCD exists, therefore it is a threat, and therefore a deterrent.

As for the size and crew requirements of the ship making it hard for the Rangers to support, well, I have a feeling that they Rangers probably have more applicants then they know what to do with. As a result of this, and the need for more Rangers, the facilities to train them would be increased as well. Maybe the Rangers gain a purely Naval arm in the 20 years after the IA's formation.

It may be less than that, if they deem it necessary, although I suspect not. The Rangers enjoyed a more public profile after 2261 (Season 4) and took in applicants from races that were not Human or Minbari. Manpower under the Anla-Shok in 2262 onwards should not have been a huge problem. Heck, they managed to crew bigger ships than the White Star, such as the Valen. I don't imagine that the reason that David Martel gave for joining the Anla-Shok was particularly unique.

Plus, the standard crew complement of the Excalibur was only 100 (from the 'Crusade Writer's Bible'), so the point is relatively moot. :wink:

Chobbly

 

[Natxomann]

Hey CARTMAG , when a VCD captain fire the main gun , the power loss lasts 1 MINUTE , not 1 hour .
Although the VCD was clearly designed and constructed around its main gun (as the A-10 Thunderbolt II /Warthog was) , it clearly posseses a decent secondary weapon´s array (I think that the bu... eeerr aft guns were somewhat related to the main gun system) , and as a ship designed around the Power projection/Space superiority/Space control/Deterrent philosophies , it also can deploy a sizeable fighter complement (and the Rangers would deploy not Starfuries , but Nials . Ouch) .
I always did think , that after the foundation of the ISA , the Rangers would dramatically increase in size , growing in numbers from the hundreds to the thousands , but when compared to a more conventional military (as Earthforce or the Warrior caste) , their numbers should be ridiculously small . This is due to 2 factors :
- No government in the ISA (specially those of the great powers) would be interested in pay the bills to sustain a purely military force other than their own , specially if that particular force has been to object of great controverse in their society (as with the warrior caste on Minbar since the time of Valen) , or it was actively employed against your own military in the past (Earthforce during the EA civil war) .
- The Anla'Shok order is not a conventional military force , and the Rangers are not conventional soldiers , they are very special individuals , even by Minbari standards , so , as the ancient religious military orders from Earth's history , their numbers should be always small .

 

[slingbld]

Depnds on how you look at it. As an individual ship, it's kind of lame. As part of a fleet, it becomes much more important. Give the Victory a bunch of escorts and maybe a carrier to fly off some T-bolts or Nials and it can fire that main weapon and be protected. Keeps the enemy from bunching up because the Victory will smash them. Put two Victory's together and they can fire in turn. So long as you have good fighter cover, the other Victory and some escorts can handle the enemy's warships, especialy since if they try and pounce on the disabled Victory the other one will smash them when they bunch.

I realy have to agree here. Realy, if you look at it this ship packs the punch of a VORLON vessal!! That's a mighty big whallop!! I cannot see it's normal use as a solo ship, that's what the White Star is for. I see it as being part of a task force. If you have 2-3 of these plus support vessals (say 2 whitestars for every VCD in addition to a fighter carrier type vessal) That would make for a relatively small but powerfull force. The VCD's could time thier main guns so as to minimize the time between firings. If every VCD destroys a powerfull ship of the wall every time it is fired, they could decimate an enemy force rather quickly.

Picture this. You have two fleets, the IA has two Victory's, some escorts, and a carrier or two. They put up their fighter screens. At relatively long range, the first Victory targets the enemy's biggest or most powerful ship and fires, destroying it and likely any ship in front of it caught in the beam. Inertia keeps the Victory moving forward while it recovers. When it does or, assuming that there are no direct threats, even before the other Victory takes it's shot. And so on until the range closes. At that range, with the enemy forces hurt and disorganized, the Victory can use it's rather substantial secondary armament to help rout them.

Look at what that gun does. In a fleet, the Victory is a designated flagship or base/station killer. Now why would the IA need a warship purpose-built to kill military bases and fleets? Why concentrate all of those resources into one ship that can only take on one mission at a time when you could have fielded Whitestars or some other small but powerful ships in greater numbers. This tells me that the IA wasn't focussed on raiders and minor threats, they wanted to be able to hurt the major powers.

Matt

Here here Matt.....


Slingbld~

 

[Chobbly]

Absolutely. The VCD is a threat and deterrent to the bigger powers, more than your average Raider band. The presence of it is what could prevent mass armed incursions by Alliance member worlds, on a scale like the Drazi and Narn invasion of Centauri space in Season Five.

Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this mighty battle-cruiser...
(Sorry, wrong universe, but hopefully you see what I mean)

Natxomann, I understand what you're saying, but I reckon that the Minbari still provide a lot of funds towards the Rangers, in particular the training and housing of the Anla-Shok. Even though the Rangers are technically the surveillance force of the ISA, I think Minbari duty would dictate that the Anla-Shok were still majorly backed by the Minbari government, more so than any other race, humans being a close second. According to President Sheridan, the new fleet was to be designed by the Minbari, to be built by Humans (so they could benefit from learning the technologies), for the Rangers. Heck, even the Ranger Council from Legend of the Rangers looks like the Grey Council. :?

I guess this will all be in the Ranger Fact Book. Christmas is a loooonnnggg time away......

Chobbly

 

[slingbld]

I know how you feel chobbly!

The more we talk about the VCD & the Rangers, the more I want that freakin' book!!

<sigh>

Oh well, griping won't get it here any faster so we might as well learn to wait. Dang I'm too darned old to learn new things......

 

[CARTMAG]

now that is something I do agree with you guys on.. I want that rangers book..... I could doo without the VCD tho... because truth be told there are soo many better designs they could have used for the VCD....

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

Ahhh..but they may be adding some ship modification/design rules into Sky Full of Stars. That way you can make it the way you want it. Then you can share with us as to how you think it should have been designed. Kinda curious as to how you would design a Victory Class Destroyer.

 

[CARTMAG]

if i can afford it when it comes out.. you just may see a personaly designed VCD by me... it would be kool if they did have the rules for personaly desiging ships...

 

[Natxomann]

Chobby :
I cannot but completely agree with you on the fact that most of the funds and equipment (from clothes to starships , including training facilities , personal weapons , and everything else) would be willingly provided by the Minbari Federation and the Grey council , even if this would provoke accusations from other races about Minbari dominance of the ISA in general and the Rangers in particular ; but I also suspect that the warrior caste would try to limit as much as possible the size and purely military capabilities of the Anla'Shok , perhaps due to the 1000 years long rivalry between the Warriors and the Rangers , perhaps due to fears about arming a military force that is not under the control of the grey council with Minbari weapons and technology , perhaps fear that a great demand of high quality military personnel by the Rangers could attract most of the best people from the warrior caste manpower base (and this should be also a concern to Earthforce) , or perhaps a combination of all these factors ; but as I said before , the Rangers are very uncommon individuals among any race (Minbari and Humans included) and their number should be always small .
BTW , the Ranger council is very similar to the grey council due to :
- A : Almost all organizations in Minbari society are controlled by councils , that given the fact that Minbari culture has a certain fetish about the numbers 3 and 9 , are formed usually by 3 or 9 people (Examples : the caste elders . Every caste council is formed by 9 people .
- B : JMS ran out of ideas about Minbari style councils , so now , every Minbari council is formed by 9 grey dressed people :wink: