Again, Dangerous Empty Hex Jumps.......

[captainjack23]

... or lost an entire fleet, and thereby perhaps the war, without doing any
harm at all to the enemy.

This kind of all or nothing gamble is quite rare in military history, few com-
manders ever did it except in truly desperate circumstances.

[snippage of some excellent stuff]

Excellent point and I'd add that even when the fleets did come out, fear of losing it all made them much less effective (Jutland, for instance). I was going to say that it need not be an entire fleet at risk, that a few bombardment ships could slip in and plaster the target with nukes -but then, that assumes that the target is asleep and knows nothing of the possibility.


Still.....it does require that the original vilanii explorers needed to take horrendous risks to cross the gaps - which works as a cost benefit analysis -you're risking a couple of scouts as opposed to a battlefleet in a war.

So perhaps a big minus for empty hex jumps; which means that either you jump as a fleet to arrive at the same time, but risk all or nothing, or jump individually, take heavy losses, but arrive strung out over several days (normal jump variance).

even better, if one uses jump flashes, perhaps a sloppy jump is really obvious to enemy sensors ?

yeah, this could work -it makes even singleship missions very hard to justify especially into hostile space.....


I could see explorers doing this, taking their lumps and setting up outposts on the other side, and then exploring onwards. Assume that the Vilanii core had very little trade or regular contact with trans gap areas, it even sets up the whole need for the unification wars. and if the mains separated by gaps were eventually self contained, trade doesn't need to deal with the risky jumps....

what else....

...then, vilanii being vilanii, they remember its possible, but very very dangerous ; and devastating and destabilizing if the technology is improved....Now that they have J2, they have the ability to safely cross gaps that the barbarians risk death. So, it becomes touted as "impossible" with the risks emphasised.......as part of the social control of the new empire; and so, no more research on the subject whatsoever. Too destabilizing.

...
So.....unable to use it effectively against the terrans to completely guarantee their supression, they have far more to lose from creating a situation where Terran privateers are willing to make risky jumps to ravage the vast internal areas of vilanii empire.


Plus, imagine the terrans -maybe they did do a double jump to get to barnard - now they think they have a technology that when revealed will allow the empire to circumvent their defences. Same problem, different side.

....good, good.....

thanks Rust ! Its good....its got a smart reason, and a good conspiracy, too. It requires paranoia and over conservative planning, both of which make sense in the context; and noone being a moron repeatedly over a hundred years.

 

[captainjack23]

Rather than going through this whole thing for the umpteenth time, how about starting off by researching all previous discussions of the issue and listing each of the "solutions" which have been proposed previously?

Then organise them into a D66 table and roll for the winner.

'cause its fun ? cause maybe something new will come up ? cause maybe this isn't the umpteenth time here for everyone ?

how about this: because the previous discussions got shouted down and derailed by people who seemed to be personally insulted by the very existence of a discussion they didn't want to participate in ?

I'm not saying this was anyone here, but you did ask.....

Honestly, why do people feel they need to hop in and grump at discussions they can easily avoid ?

 

[RandyT0001]

Captainjack, there is only one person that can solve your paradox. Send an email direct to Marc Miller. Ask him. He was there at GDW when this backstory was created.

....you don't have to yell :?

IIRC, according to commonly held internet etiquette, one is considered to be yelling or shouting when they use all capital letters in a statement. I'm not shouting. I was using that font size in an effort to be clearly legible.

Here it is, through several threads, about half of which ended up in arguements that led to locked threads, over a year later and this particular problem about "empty hex jumps" before the IW's, during the IW's and after the IW's still haunts you. If none of the previous solutions in previous threads are good enough for you and you must have an 'official' explaination the only person that can provide that is Marc. Ask him. Once he provides you with the answer please be so kind as to post it so that everybody will know and the debate can finally be settled.

 

[captainjack23]

Captainjack, there is only one person that can solve your paradox. Send an email direct to Marc Miller. Ask him. He was there at GDW when this backstory was created.

....you don't have to yell :?

IIRC, according to commonly held internet etiquette, one is considered to be yelling or shouting when they use all capital letters in a statement. I'm not shouting. I was using that font size in an effort to be clearly legible.

Here it is, through several threads, about half of which ended up in arguements that led to locked threads, over a year later and this particular problem about "empty hex jumps" before the IW's, during the IW's and after the IW's still haunts you. If none of the previous solutions in previous threads are good enough for you and you must have an 'official' explaination the only person that can provide that is Marc. Ask him. Once he provides you with the answer please be so kind as to post it so that everybody will know and the debate can finally be settled.

I did. he didn't. I'm curious what other people think more than what the official answer would be, anyway. Haunted ? Please. Florid prose isn't any way to help a topic stay polite. Why so grumpy and dismissive ? I'd almost think that you are an agent of Vilanii disinformation trying to keep some kind of secret from spilling out... ( ) *

Its no secret that you think its a trivial concern, but hey, last I checked, having trivial concerns on a hobby forum was hardly something I had a monopoly on. Nor do I understand why you think its so important that everyone know how you feel on the matter. To quote MST3K, "If it bugs thee, why dost thou waste thy precious time reading it ?"

Night Randy.

*this is a joke in case you are in a humor impaired mode right now......

 

[Vile]

Rather than going through this whole thing for the umpteenth time, how about starting off by researching all previous discussions of the issue and listing each of the "solutions" which have been proposed previously?

Then organise them into a D66 table and roll for the winner.

'cause its fun ? cause maybe something new will come up ? cause maybe this isn't the umpteenth time here for everyone ?

Grumpiness has nothing to do with it - that was a serious suggestion. How can anyone tell whether anything new comes up if there is no record of everything old that has come up? The first step in any discussion should be some desktop research on precedent.

Neither is the random roll for the best answer a joke - this whole thing is down to a simple continuity error on the part of the writers, so any one "answer" is as good as another.

 

[BP]

I must admin to never actually having any interest in the 3I's 'history'. But I was looking forward to that D66 list... (rust's post was well stated, but being pretty obvious, so if it wasn't stated in the past that goes to prove its plausibility!)

So this is a topic that has spawned locked thread flame wars?

Its about empty hexes!

So, essentially, this is the quintessential argument over nothing!

 

[captainjack23]

I must admin to never actually having any interest in the 3I's 'history'. But I was looking forward to that D66 list... (rust's post was well stated, but being pretty obvious, so if it wasn't stated in the past that goes to prove its plausibility!)

So this is a topic that has spawned locked thread flame wars?

Its about empty hexes!

So, essentially, this is the quintessential argument over nothing!

People spawn locked threads and flame wars, not topics.....mostly. And as we can see, this is apparently a sore spot for some, and, as I'd rather not spawn flames or locks, I'll let it go. Sorry to Randy and Vile, didn't mean to tread so hard on your toes.

BTW, good one. yes, it is over nothing -in fact over the lack of information about nothing. And so let it remain.

 

[GypsyComet]

Marc Miller will likely not give a useful answer. He moved on from really caring all that much about this kind of detail when GDW went down, if the approach taken at his direction in T4 was any indication.

"We're not going to use the existing star maps because that gives an unfair advantage to existing players."

 

[Vile]

And as we can see, this is apparently a sore spot for some, and, as I'd rather not spawn flames or locks, I'll let it go. Sorry to Randy and Vile, didn't mean to tread so hard on your toes.

I can't speak for Randy, but my toes remain untrodden upon. I have never paid much attention to this particular topic, but I am not being in any way facetious when asking what solutions to this continuity error have been previously proposed. Why start from scratch when there have already been several discussions? Why re-invent the wheel?

 

[captainjack23]

Marc Miller will likely not give a useful answer. He moved on from really caring all that much about this kind of detail when GDW went down, if the approach taken at his direction in T4 was any indication.

"We're not going to use the existing star maps because that gives an unfair advantage to existing players."

From his viewpoint, I cant help but think that's healthy.

 

[rust]

From his viewpoint, I cant help but think that's healthy.

I am not Marc Miller [no surprise here ...], but I can very well understand
that.

Even in my little amateur world building I find it extremely difficult to con-
tinue with a setting once I have discovered that it has contradictions and
logic gaps big enough to fly a battle cruiser through.

While I can afford to hide my mistakes on a backup CD and move on to a
new, improved setting (bye Pharos IV, welcome Varun ...), someone with
a prominent published setting cannot get rid of it so easily, he has to find
other ways to deal with the problem: Start a major civil war (MegaTravel-
ler), introduce an apocalyptic desaster (Traveller New Era), move through
time to an era when most of the problems did not yet exist (T4) ...

Only if all this does not help, and the old problems still keep returning, he
can either give up on his creation or write a new testam... ...oops, wrong
thread ... game - perhaps this is what T5 is all about.

 

[Vile]

I am not Marc Miller [no surprise here ...]

Damn, there goes that theory. :?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I use the idea of Empty Space Jumping being impossible at lower TLs and possible at higher TLs.

I use TL12 as the break point.

Any society with TL12 technology can build ships that jump into Empty Space. Any society/setting with lower TL cannot.

My explanation is that it requires understanding of Micro-Gravity Technology (TL12) to make it work. This is the same technological breakthrough that allows Meson Gun/Shield Technology and Gravity Belts. From TL 9-11, you have GROSS gravity control, but at TL12 you get Micro Gravity Control and that is what is needed for ESJ.

That lets the IW setting (TL11) have no Empty Space Jumps, but allows it at the Milieu 0 and beyond settings.

So, once a society develops Jump-3, then they can also do ESJs. The development is immediately incorporated into lower jump settings as well. So even a lowly J1 Type A1 Free Trader can do ESJs because the KNOWLEDGE was based on TL15 (3I designs).

IMTU, I have ONE planet at TL12 and the rest of the setting is TL11, so only one starport can build ships capable of ESJs. This is a HUGE strategic advantage and is one of the main plot points of the setting.

It works for me and if you squint a bit, it will work for the Third Imperium/OTU setting.

 

[captainjack23]

A quick note to the "why are you so interested in this trivia ?" posters....I dorun campaigns in the IW wars period -and with players who play all eras of traveller. So the issue comes up -and like it or not IW (and other maps) make it plain that 1. EHJ's solve a bunch of problems (while wrecking the situation's uniqueness) 2. The vilanii had to have used them at some point. And I like having a response other that "becuase I said so" to "well, hell why not put in an extra fuel tank and jump there direct ?"

It's trivia to the CT period, and even at Milleu 0: it's central to the IW campaigns.

I use the idea of Empty Space Jumping being impossible at lower TLs and possible at higher TLs.

I use TL12 as the break point..

Yeah, that is a good one, and close to the one I use - that being that EHJ are generally possible one TL after the star-star jump of that rating. before then it is either impossible, or evry risky (TL9); and only becomes safe at the next J level (TL 11 = J2 and EHJ1)

It covers the extra TL that J1 gets at TL 10, too which is nice and orderly.
Interestingly, it implies that J6 would ony be possible start to star at TL15 -which is fun, or ignorable as one wishes.

Problem is, it does give the Vilanii EHJ capacity when it matters most -the IW period. risky EHJ's, even when preventing fleetswould still have potentially decisive uses - if you doubt that crews and fleets wouldn;t take the risks, look at WWII in the pacific with the Kamikazi tactics and operation Ten-Go (using battleships as suicide decoys and bait). After getting H bombed in the third war, possibly during it, I could see terran suicude raiders jumping actross gaps so that some of them could deliver WMD strikes at vilanii worlds.


One might well assume that the vilanii used EHJ to scout but kept it somewhat classified. When J2 came about it was used to conquer the pocket empires that had J1, so the existance of EHJ, along with J2 tech, was effectively surpressed.....or lost ?

So the TL 9 innovation of EHJ was supressed, as a means to keeping the true J2 hidden -and perhaps in such a way that even if it was penetrated, the thieves would likely only get the EHJ secret -not realizing it was obsolete. Possibly the Vilanii saw EHJ capacity as necessary precursor to J2, and cut off the research at its root.

Consider, too, that until the Vargr and the Terrans came along, Jump was an unique Vilanii invention, and as far as they knew, the only way the secret could be spread was by them......
So, perhaps the Vilanii consolidation and social freezing was in service of protecting this BIG secret. They froze almost all their tech at 9 while retaining only what was needed to keep producing a true J2 capacity; the goal being to keep the J2 monopoly forever......which may explain why the Vilanii so ruthlessly froze their culture. Having seen J1 leak out and presumably threaten their existance, the supression was applied to the aliens and the vilanii.

then the terrans discovered J1 on their own, but fell for the disinformation and neglected EHJ research while pushing to catch up to J2 ? maybe.

Hmmm. Broad social implications derived from fussing with a rules inconsistency. I like. A Big Messy Secret in the IW period, too.

 

[captainjack23]

perhaps this is what T5 is all about.

Aw crap. Now we have to kill you. 8)

 

[rust]

Aw crap. Now we have to kill you. 8)

Ah, well, I have already that death sentence in seven systems, so ... 8)

 

[BP]

(Psst - just jump to an Empty Hex - you'll be safe there...)

 

[AndrewW]

(Psst - just jump to an Empty Hex - you'll be safe there...)

Plots to increase the death sentence to eight system, establishing a new system at the empty hex.

 

[mmbutter]

Why not just use the explanation given in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars?

The mathematics known at the time to the Terrans would only allow calculations with a significant gravity well at each end - a rogue planet was discovered between Sol and Barnard's Star which allowed the jump in that direction. Later on (about the time the Terrans discovered J3) they also discovered the mathematics that allowed jump calculations to have no gravity well at either end, so they could then plot jumps into truly empty hexes.

For the Vilani, it was cultural conservatism - they knew how to jump to empty hexes, but since they had J2 while everyone else only had J1, it was not needed, and therefore their "preplanned routes" did not include jumps to empty hexes. And their conservatism meant that they would follow the preplanned routes rather than "strike out on their own," even if jumping through an empty hex was a better route.

 

[captainjack23]

Why not just use the explanation given in GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars?

The mathematics known at the time to the Terrans would only allow calculations with a significant gravity well at each end - a rogue planet was discovered between Sol and Barnard's Star which allowed the jump in that direction. Later on (about the time the Terrans discovered J3) they also discovered the mathematics that allowed jump calculations to have no gravity well at either end, so they could then plot jumps into truly empty hexes.

That's good, although to be pedantic, I believe what you wrote there is more detailed and developed than what is presented in IW. However, the rogue planet scenario is kind of a problem, also: where is the rogue planet on local and current maps ? A J1 connection to terra would be a big economic asset; and after all the J1 traffic that did go thru it in the early (ie pre J2 terran period) IW period, it's got to be a poorly kept secret.

I'm coming to wonder if the Rogue planet scenario is Terran disinformation of some kind...but why ?

For the Vilani, it was cultural conservatism - they knew how to jump to empty hexes, but since they had J2 while everyone else only had J1, it was not needed, and therefore their "preplanned routes" did not include jumps to empty hexes. And their conservatism meant that they would follow the preplanned routes rather than "strike out on their own," even if jumping through an empty hex was a better route.

The problem is mainly that I dislike "and so the bad guys were stupid" as a solution - which is really what that level of conservativism means to me. It works fine for day to day stuff, and indeed would be expected - and even in the first couple of wars -where the Vilanii won easily, and did not take the terrans seriously; but, in the later war, one which was eventually "to the knife", for that many years and generations ? It stretches my belief suspenders beyond recovery. Still, as has been pointed out, it is my hangup - but one that provides a fun exercise in faux analysis, if you like that kind of stuff.*

Also, its a major point in the IW setting that at least once, and arguably twice, there was a truly out of the box thinker in charge of the vilanii; some kind of use of EHJ mobility would be very likely -even if just to get scouts into Terra or commerse raiders behind the lines- EHJ are risky? **

Thats the part that doesn't really work all that well (for me). Not that they can't be risky, just that they wont be used even if they are ....on some level. I can see the fleets avoiding an EHJ.... but there are always heroic volunteers, for highly expendable small units which can do valuable work at low risk to the owning side.

Think of raiders or scouts as WWII U-boats, perhaps, of whom perhaps 10% survived the war -or even American Subs -of whom 50% of the crews survived (and we won). Yet they always had crews and new volunteers no matter how risk it was known to be. And they were crucial to the war, one way or another.

Finally, the old "they forgot" overlooks the fact that the Vilanii are notorious for recording and codifying everything...if they forgot, its on purpose.

Regardless, as I mentioned its an issue thats easy to finess unless one is playing in IW, so this may or may not matter -one can file it under "I wonder why they did that in ancient history, but not very much" and move on. But thanks for chiming in, anyway.

*enough to want to do it, but not so much that it enrages one..
**Too, when assessing risk, keep in mind that most misjumps aren't automatically fatal -you just end up lost and way away from your goal.