AD&D Conan: Early Dragon Magazine Article

[Yogah of Yag]

I would like to begin a discussion of a remarkable article I've been privileged to review from a 1980 issue of Dragon magazine (# 36). In this article the one and only EGG gives what he feels are stats for our favorite Cimmerian. For those who have great experience in statting out Conan (*ahem*, Vincent! ) what are your thoughts about Mr. Gygax's renderings?

As some of you know I am a devoted fan of Mongoose's Conan RPG line and Vincent Darlage's work, and I'm not bashing either by learning the AD&D version of Conan, but simply looking at other interpretations of the Blue-Eyed Reaver.

Ready, set, DISCUSS!




LINK: http://rapidshare.com/files/77760785/Dragon36_CONAN.pdf.html


If this topic has been discussed, please direct me to the thread. I did a search for "dragon", "magazine" and came up with over 700 hits.

Peace out! 8)

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Well, since it has been a while since I played AD&D, I would not agree with a lot of what Gygax wrote.

First, by stats: CONAN was not a god or even a demi-God, he was mortal.

Primarily, the rules have changed so much as the versions progressed, I would give him some highter stats, especially in regard to Strength and Con. As he grew older, Wisdom and Intelligence were possibly enhanced, but not to the point of either of them being over 16. Though he was King of Aquilonia, that does not permit high stats in Wisdom and Intelligence. Conan had GUT INSTINCTS, D&D Does not really justify that in an attribute.

Being a large, hulking Barbarian, I would not give him a too high Dex... How many bodybuilders are actual very agile?

Charisma, well, that is a hard one, as there are kings and world leaders that are not good at that, but I would say max of 15.

Psionics: Damn that brought back memories. Conan would not have any, as there is no indication of it in any of the books or stories.

Just my thoughts after glancing over the document.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I am a HUGE fan of that article. It was the article that inspired me to make my website.

I got into Conan, in part, because of Gary Gygax (he had a suggested reading section in the AD&D DMG, and I read most of his suggestions).

I thought it was interesting how class levels not only went up as he aged, but some of them went down, a factor not covered in the rules. It is as if some skills atrophe from disuse. It is too bad concepts like that never made it into 3rd edition.

 

[InsomNY]

Conan had GUT INSTINCTS, D&D Does not really justify that in an attribute.

Actually, that's what Wisdom is supposed to be.

Being a large, hulking Barbarian, I would not give him a too high Dex... How many bodybuilders are actual very agile?

Fine, but every description of Conan in action in the REH stories uses words like "catlike," "blindingly fast," and similar terms.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Actually, that's what Wisdom is supposed to be.

I never concidered Wisdom to cover gut instincts. If some feel it does, that is fine. I just feel that INSTINCT and WISDOM are two different things.

INSTINCT: Instinct is the inherent disposition of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instincts are generally inherited patterns of responses or reactions to certain kinds of stimuli...

WISDOM: Wisdom is the ability, developed through experience, insight and reflection, to discern truth and exercise good judgment. Wisdom is sometimes conceptualized as an especially well developed form of common sense

Animals survive off of their instincts. Are they wise?

Yeah: You are correct about the Conan being "Catlike" and such, I totally forgot about that.

But like I said in the first post I made, He is NOT a god or Demi-God, so my version of Conan is sort of toned down...

 

[thulsa]

Actually, that's what Wisdom is supposed to be.

I never concidered Wisdom to cover gut instincts. If some feel it does, that is fine. I just feel that INSTINCT and WISDOM are two different things.

Have to agree with the original poster here. According to the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#wisdomWis

"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings." (my emphasis)

That's why oozes and vermin have no Int scores, but they do have Wis scores.

- thulsa

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Since basically Instinct is a reaction to Stimuli, No Attribute could cover it.

I mean, if a character touches something hot, do they make a wisdom check to pull their hand away? It seems that even a newborn baby would put there hand away... (No, I would test that theory on a newborn)

Do vermin and animals need Wisdom scores? Yes, but I feel they need them to assist with saves. Do animals have aspects of wisdom (as defined by the SRD)? Yes, does it constitute that they actually have Wisdom ---- NO!

There are limits in what a game can and cannot do to simulate reality! My point is not to argue about it, but to express my views on what Conan should be like. Or how he is portrayed. And ultimately, this will include game mechanics and rules.

Vincent pointed out how the "Rules" were changed for Conan. Basically when it came to losing levels.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Vincent pointed out how the "Rules" were changed for Conan. Basically when it came to losing levels.

I think that is one of the neat things about that article. I was on a fencing team in college, but am I as good now, 13 years later? No. A novice could probably outfence me now. I remember learning BASIC programming in high school. I wouldn't be able to do anything in BASIC now. I even learned Fortran (or something like that) at one point. Any "skill points" that I might have put into those skills are long lost to me now, replaced by others.

One may never forget how to ride a bicycle, but one can get quite rusty at it. If you don't use it, you lose it. I wonder if any RPG uses that concept?

Anyway, I think it is neat that this old Conan article incorporated that concept.

 

[thulsa]

I mean, if a character touches something hot, do they make a wisdom check to pull their hand away?

No need to roll for something that is "obvious" (rolls and ability checks are there to introduce some randomness to something that "might or might not succeed").

Or just take 10 on the check...

It seems that even a newborn baby would put there hand away... (No, I would test that theory on a newborn)

Haven't tested it (on a newborn...), but isn't that part of growing up and learning? You have to get burned at least once to know how it feels (painful!), and that it is "wise" to stay away from fire/heat.... Else you need to be told (and "get wise" that way... ).

- thulsa

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Let me put this simply:

INSTINCT is a natural reaction. WISDOM is learning through experiences. INTELLIGENCE is applying what you have learned.

EX: Smoking. Not an instinct per se, but once addicted it my be concidered one. You know they are bad for you (WISDOM) so you do not start doing it or Quit (Intelligence).

The SRD mentioned Perception. Perception can be improved through practice, therefore it is a part of Wisdom. Animals and Monster DO have Perception, as they are aware of thier surroundings, which would entail they have Wisdom. Other Monsters have actual Wisdom.

Haven't tested it (on a newborn...), but isn't that part of growing up and learning? You have to get burned at least once to know how it feels (painful!), and that it is "wise" to stay away from fire/heat.... Else you need to be told (and "get wise" that way... ).

- thulsa

Damn this is fun :lol:

It is a natural occurence to Pull away from a heat source, once it is touched. Hence, an instinct.

It is a learned behavior not to let it happen again...

It is sort of like moods. We get pissed off a few times, yell, scream, throw something, then after we get out asses kicked for doing it, we LEARN not to do it again.

Now moods are not insticts, but I am just stressing the point.

This is what I am talking about, Thulsa, INSTINCT tells us to pull our hand away... WISDOM tells us not to do it again.

You know, when 2nd Edition came out with Skills & Powers, they split up the Attributes: That was one of the best things they ever did, and I do not know why they did not do that in 3rd edition...

I may just do that for Conan...

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

I think that is one of the neat things about that article. I
Anyway, I think it is neat that this old Conan article incorporated that concept.

Agree! Yet another way Conan can be more realistic. This and splitting up the attribute scores into sub scores.

Hell, may even do that for Runequest in the Conan Conversion.

 

[FailedSpotCheck]

In high school Psychology we were taught that instinct is a distinctly animalistic quality and positively non-human. My Psych class was over 20 years ago. Does that idea still have currency? More importantly, what were the attitudes about instinct in humans which were current in REH's time in the early 20th century, still under the sway of late Victorian conceptions?

Conan was IIRC many times likened to having animal traits in appearance, movement, etc., but I am hesitant to place Instinct in the Ability score of Wisdom. IMHO, Wis and Cha are perhaps the two Ability scores most poorly defined in game terms. For example, when contemplating the concept of Memory in game terms, I was forced to place this in Wis, since it really does not belong anywhere else.

My 2 bits.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

In high school Psychology we were taught that instinct is a distinctly animalistic quality and positively non-human. My Psych class was over 20 years ago. Does that idea still have currency?

My 2 bits.

I do not think it still applies today. We as humans do have animalistic qualities. After all, depending on what you believe, some say, we did evolve from apes.

We as humans have the instinct to survive. Doing whatever is necessary to do. There is some form of animalism in all of us.

I was taught from that same old school, but I never "Fell" for it and openly contested it... having a few teacher/parent conferences in the meantime.

I have always been outspoken.

As far as memory, that is a hard one, and once a again goes to the point of not having all this available to us in an RPG.

I feel it would fall under Wisdom though, as we have done it, and we remember doing it. Hence, we learned (remembered) from experience.

 

[Aholibamah]

Vincent pointed out how the "Rules" were changed for Conan. Basically when it came to losing levels.

I think that is one of the neat things about that article. I was on a fencing team in college, but am I as good now, 13 years later? No. A novice could probably outfence me now. I remember learning BASIC programming in high school. I wouldn't be able to do anything in BASIC now. I even learned Fortran (or something like that) at one point. Any "skill points" that I might have put into those skills are long lost to me now, replaced by others.

One may never forget how to ride a bicycle, but one can get quite rusty at it. If you don't use it, you lose it. I wonder if any RPG uses that concept?

Anyway, I think it is neat that this old Conan article incorporated that concept.

True for me as well for Kendo. I still know the moves, in a way I still have the 'instincts' that were trained into me but my reaction times and coordination are slower and I'm frankly in poorer shape. Against a novice with a similar weapon I could win--against anyone with some experience or regular training and I'd lose, barring a little luck.