ACTA 2e - Breaking Stealth

[WereRogue]

Please help clear up some confusion.

In the 2e rulebook, under stealth, it says (in part) "An additional -1 penalty is applied if any other ship in the same fleet has successfully attacked the target in the same turn . . . ." (emphasis mine).

A friend of mine asserts that catching a Stealthed ship in the explosion radius of an E-Mine counts as an attack, and thus lowers the ships stealth.

I maintain that unless he targetted the ship with the E-Mine that, essentially, he is making an attack in an empty area of space, and not on the ship in question.

Who's correct?

Additionally, we tend to play a lot of mixed team games (EA, Narn vs. Minbari, ISA, or something similar). The wording of the rule says "ship in the same fleet", but does that extend to "friendly" ships that are not in the same fleet? What about an ISA fleet that uses League Ships?

Thanks!

-Ken

 

[Winged_Human]

--re-post from original thread--

I am the player with which Wererogue has had this question posed to. As I read the 2e rules I was under the understanding that a successful Attack does damage, AKA a Direct Hit. And since the rules state that any sucessfull attack (read Direct hit) infers a -1 penalty to stealth for the rest of the turn an E-mine that does damage should infer the -1 penalty on any ship that has suffered damage.

Now seeing as how The only ships listed in the back of the Core rulebook that would benefit from E-mines reducing stealth are the G'Quans (if I remember correctly) I don't think this would be that big of a deal. But would greatly like this matter to be cleared up before the fleet lists come out as it will impact on my fleet ship choices.

 

[katadder]

I would say no.
to quote part of the e-mine description. every ship within 3" is attacked by the e-mine.
therefore the e-mine breaks stealth, but its no longer on the board so you cannot get the bonus.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm depends if the idea is "target that explosion and fire" if so than a energy mine hit (or fighter shot) should work.

On fighters - it does say - A Fighter is treated as a ship for all purposes, unless mentioned below and it does not say anything about a fighter not counting as a ship for firing.

Guess its a good job that Minbari have masses of Advanced Antifighter and deadily fighters.

 

[katadder]

on fighters i agree, they do count as ships now so it seems they can do this. which is better than scanners to full ever was as you still get to attack and get the stealth bonus effectively for free

 

[Winged_Human]

If a G'Quan uses a weapon that uses a template to determine which ships to make "Attack Rolls" on, what is the difference?

You're implying that just beacuse the weapon isn't forced to lock on, that the effects of the weapon doesn't give the others better chances to lock on.

In effect, it would be likedropping a rock into a pond to make a boat move.

Same principle IMO, and the effect that MGP was going for.

 

[katadder]

the g'quan attacks an area of space. that doesnt help you break stealth on a target. a ship that breaks and attacks a stealth target has the target locked in so can transmit the telemetry etc to other ships in the fleet. thats what the idea was behind this ruling. (believe me i know this much).

also like i said look at the e-mine, it says the e-mine attacks every ship within 3" so like i said the e-mine is the one successfuly attacking not the g'quan.

 

[Court Jester]

To be as polite as poossible I think your answer is wrong Katadder... Reading the rules as they are written (without bending the wording of the e-mine trait) the Minbari stealth will be lowered.

The e-mine AD hit and damages the Minbari ship. The e-mine is a Narn weapon. The Narn ship that fired said weapon has then successfully attacked the Minbari. Stealth is lowered.

I think now that whenever somone trys to lower the stealth of my Minbari ships I'll just say nope sorry... it wasn't your ship that successfully attacked mine... it was your neutron laser...

 

[katadder]

except the narn ship atatcks an area of space. it specifically says without any bending that the e-mine then attacks all targets within 3".
sorry but hitting open space with an e-mine will not help you break stealth.

 

[Davesaint]

I would say no.
to quote part of the e-mine description. every ship within 3" is attacked by the e-mine.
therefore the e-mine breaks stealth, but its no longer on the board so you cannot get the bonus.

Huh? That's confusing logic. The e-mine is the attacker, not the ship that fired the e-mine? That's a bizzare take on the rules.....


Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

He is quoting the rules, which say:

You do not have to target an enemy ship - an area of space is just fine! Every object within 3" of this point will be attacked by the Energy Mine.

However, if you read the rules for Adaptive Armour, they give a clear definintion of what constitutes an attack:

An attack is defined as the Attack Dice rolled by a single source (such as a ship exploding close by) or weapons system (the Heavy Pulse Cannon and Heavy Laser cannon of an Earth Alliance Omega would therefore count as two seperate attacks).

So I would contend that the Energy Mine is the weapon, not the explosive effect. And so a hit with an e-mine reduces stealth.

 

[Burger]

I think we have the first contender for the 2e errata here

Though, I think the definition of "attack" under Adaptive Armour is only applicable to the Adaptive Armour rule, not as a generatlization to other parts of the game.

 

[Triggy]

As a rider to this question (also from the source thread), we would like clarification on what exactly constitutes a "successful" attack. Does this mean a ship/weapon succeeding in its Stealth roll; succeeding in having at least one AD beat the Hull score; or causing at least one point of Damage/Crew/Shield loss/Intercepted/Dodged/GEGed hit?

A big problem here is that the AD roll doesn't just represent hitting the target but penetrating the armour too. Also, even if it is successful, it doesn't necessarily result in a loss of Damage points.

 

[MongooseMatt]

A ship hit by an Energy Mine has certainly been attacked by the ship that fired it. Think of is as the explosion silhouetting the target, lighting it up like a Christmas tree.

As for the other question, under normal circumstances to get the 'attacked' bonus against Stealth, a ship first needs to see the target ship, then roll dice against it, i.e, make an attack. Whether it causes damage or not is immaterial.

This, incidentally, is why energy mines grant the bonus - you are rolling dice against said ship, thus attacking it. The energy mine trait specifically says you skip the Steath rolling stage.

It's all there

 

[Locutus9956]

Excellent! One further query though, does the firing ship have to be in range? To the best of my knowledge theres nothing to stop you firing at a ship thats out of range, your dice just all miss...

 

[Burger]

Excellent! One further query though, does the firing ship have to be in range? To the best of my knowledge theres nothing to stop you firing at a ship thats out of range, your dice just all miss...

Nothing except the rules See "Eligable targets" in the attack phase.
Yes you do have to be in range and in arc to fire a weapons system.

Declaring a ship to fire however is a different matter, it doesn't have to have any eligable targets to be nominated ("attack phase init sinking")

 

[MongooseMatt]

Excellent! One further query though, does the firing ship have to be in range? To the best of my knowledge theres nothing to stop you firing at a ship thats out of range, your dice just all miss...

Page 8, Eligible Targets.

Nice try, but no

 

[Locutus9956]

Fair enough So much for my 'swarm of myrmidons sitting at the far side of the board pinging away until they lock a target' plan

that said... Hermes sudenly seem far more useful....

 

[Da Boss]

Declaring a ship to fire however is a different matter, it doesn't have to have any eligable targets to be nominated ("attack phase init sinking")

Out of interest why would you want to do that - must be a good reason but can't think of it? I understand movement Init sinks but you want to fire before the enemy?

 

[Burger]

I understand movement Init sinks but you want to fire before the enemy?

Hehe, if I had £1 for every time someone asked me that :lol:

Border Dispute scenario. You init sink your firing until you know whether your opponent is firing "fake" or "real" fire from his big ships. If he fires all fake, then you can let rip with real damage from your remaining big ones :wink: