a Twilight's Peak question (spoilers included)

[juvation]

just getting my Traveller on again after a gap of 20+ years...

one thing that always irked me about TP is the relationship between the Octagon Tower with the Ancients base.

the base was built first, long ago. then someone comes along and finds it somehow, mostly leaves it alone, doesn't tell anyone about it, and builds a tower right on top.

does this sound a little odd to anyone else? or am i missing something obvious?

thanks guys.

 

[SSWarlock]

I can easily come up with various scenarios in which the original finder(s) became quietly "disappeared" somehow yet never yielded the location to those that caused the "disappearing".

 

[juvation]

I can easily come up with various scenarios in which the original finder(s) became quietly "disappeared" somehow yet never yielded the location to those that caused the "disappearing".

OK, so Fulacin is a backwater world that nobody cares about, it's not crawling with tourists or prospectors or whoever, and so an Ancients base would go unnoticed for a while, fair enough.

somehow, someone finds the base and for whatever reason keeps the location to themselves. if they're not the builders of the tower, they somehow run into them, and the tower gets built right on top with a connecting tunnel thing. why would you do that, if you're not going to plunder the base? (ok maybe you can't get through the door, but still, why not build the tower somewhere else and keep the base location for yourself?)

just seems like there's no reason why you *would* build it this way. it just marks out the location of the base for someone else to come along and use.

 

[SSWarlock]

True.

But keep in mind the year in which the adventure was written (1980), the limitations of the editing technology back then (I remember them well), and the tools GMs had to run adventures with (colored pencils and paper). Adventure 3 was published while the RPG industry was in its "early teenage" years and most publications were first drafted on typewriters so editing and error correction were much more time-consuming making deadlines much tighter. All these factors plus the general lack of other publishers to compare works to forced a simplicity in adventure writing.

I actually drafted a 30-page campaign book for Traveller on my Commodore 64 before realizing I had no way to share it. Ended up tossing the whole thing because it was so frustrating just trying to correct errors and reprint it each time.

Traveller adventure writing has come a long way (witness the "Secret of the Ancients" rewrite by Mongoose and any of Michael Dougherty's publications) thanks to the evolution of the RPG industry as well as the tools with which to write/publish/run RPG adventures.

One of the things I remember about the first time I was run through Twilight's Peak 'way back then was it was fun. For me, that's really what makes an adventure "good".

 

[alex_greene]

Also, Twilight's Peak was intended just to be Traveller's version of a dungeon crawl. There were a lot of those early on: Shadows, Annic Nova, Research Station Gamma, Death Station ...

 

[juvation]

One of the things I remember about the first time I was run through Twilight's Peak 'way back then was it was fun. For me, that's really what makes an adventure "good".

thanks for the response. for sure this adventure is fab and Traveller at its best. i'm fine with there being a few "flaws" here and there - i just wondered whether i'd missed something in the setup, is all.

and if the characters pick up on anything and ask, well, that's just one more mystery in MTU for them to wonder about

 

[Chronus]

I read an idea somewhere in internet-land that the Octagon Society who built the octagons was really a secret organization that did discoveries and/or research on Ancient sites. Twilight's Peak was one such location.

I suppose we could elaborate on that. The Society only got as far as the alien door. There was no spider or anything at the time to scare their discoverers that would "psionically" open the door so they, perhaps, spent decades trying to find a way in.

As many of us know, the Society fell on hard times, so the digs and discoveries came to a stop. Perhaps there are more clues to be discovered, handed down to the great, great . . . mega-great grandchildren of the Society's upper echelon?

 

[juvation]

I read an idea somewhere in internet-land that the Octagon Society who built the octagons was really a secret organization that did discoveries and/or research on Ancient sites. Twilight's Peak was one such location.

I suppose we could elaborate on that. The Society only got as far as the alien door. There was no spider or anything at the time to scare their discoverers that would "psionically" open the door so they, perhaps, spent decades trying to find a way in.

As many of us know, the Society fell on hard times, so the digs and discoveries came to a stop. Perhaps there are more clues to be discovered, handed down to the great, great . . . mega-great grandchildren of the Society's upper echelon?

aha this is the reply i was casting into the vastnesses for....

so let's say the Octagon Society is somewhat a front for an organisation looking for and cataloguing Ancients bases. if it finds anything, it builds on top of the base, and relies on its membership to sort out and benefit from the base. if not, well, the front works well enough.

it hits gold on Fulacin, but can't get through the door. oh well, we'll take the long view and hope that succeeding society members sort out what to do.

mostly makes sense now, thanks

 

[SSWarlock]

oh well, we'll take the long view and hope that succeeding society members sort out what to do.

We did. :wink:

 

[juvation]

oh well, we'll take the long view and hope that succeeding society members sort out what to do.

We did. :wink:

and who knows what might be lurking under the other towers....

whee!

 

[Ishmael]

We know from "Secrets of the Ancients" that grandfather and/or other surviving ancients use lower sophonts as agents. Perhaps the Octagon Society was created by the actions of such agents from one faction of the ancients and its downfall was brought about by agents from a competing faction during the ancient's hidden war..

Either way, showing too much interest will only bring unwanted attentions by said factions who want to keep things quiet during the ongoing hidden war of the ancients ( are all the combatants really dead or gone? ).

Who actually runs the Traveller's Aid Society, anyways? Could it be that they are the Octagon Society reincarnate, much like The Freemasons are alleged ( by some ) to be a continuation of the Templar? I wonder how many high nobles were members? How many are members? Did the Octagon Society disband because of financial scandals as historical record states? or was it a victim of an 'agent' initiated social engineering project to bury the actual truth?
What role did these groups play in the Psionic suppressions. The Psionic institutes were forcibly disbanded. "financial scandals" were the official reason that the Imperium went in. another bit of social engineering to suppress a means of detecting the motions and actions of Ancients and their agents during their hidden war?
Conspiracy theorists in the Marches think they know, but say the historical records are being suppressed. Its said that some of the most vocal seem to have disappeared without a trace or died in unusual ways.
Or it could be that the Octagon Society really is dead and gone with nothing left to mark their existence but some crumbling buildings and foundations, nothing more.

Someone should look into it.
Perhaps a patron/art historian wants a group to investigate the weird and unexplained anomaly in an old painting of an Octagon tower on an unnamed world. A clue to hidden riches? or something dark and sinister......





Indiana Jones and the DaVinci code

 

[alex_greene]

Of course, it could all be connected. All of it. The Octagon Society, the Zhodani base, all of it.

A long time ago, the Imperium funded the Octagon Society to investigate Ancient bases. They were looking for Ancient Artefacts. Anything, really: AI, antimatter, schematics for Jump drives higher than 6, Star Triggers, teleportation, whatever they could find.

Since the Octagon Society made heavy use of psionic agents, when the Psionic Suppressions began the psions were hounded, people who hired them went broke or got sent to prison (or hanged) and the Society folded as without their Clairvoyants, they could make no further headway.

As far as the player characters are concerned, the whole venture seems legit. However, their Patron is in fact a traitor to the Imperium, who is in the pay of the Zhodani. The quest to find the crashed ship, the Octagon Tower, all of that, is in fact a carefully contrived setup; they want the characters to go in and fall prey to the traps set up by the Ancients, that foiled the Society's best cracksmen - six months ago.

The Octagon Society is being revived again, this time with Zhodani paymasters. And they know they've hit paydirt with Fulacin because of three things:-

1. Their researchers are convinced that there is an Ancient base somewhere in the Marches which contains equipment able to scan all of space as far as the Galactic core in real time.

2. Their records of the old Octagon Society, bought or stolen, indicate that the Fulacin tower was the only one the Society ever reported nothing on. No success; no failure; nothing. Nobody filed a report, or was heard from at all after building the tower, according to the Society's records.

3. The Zhodani have better Clairvoyants.

So the characters could go there, and slowly piece together this grand scheme, as outlined above, and while they're at it uncover the secret of Twilight's Peak. Which could be anything. Anything you like.

Now I've said all of that ... no point in a Twilight's Peak supplement to the Secrets of the Ancients campaign, now, is there?

 

[AndrewW]

Did the Octagon Society disband because of financial scandals as historical record states?

Or they didn't disband at all, but only wanted people to think they did so they could continue their work in secret.

 

[alex_greene]

Did the Octagon Society disband because of financial scandals as historical record states?

Or they didn't disband at all, but only wanted people to think they did so they could continue their work in secret.

Or, as stated above, they got hounded into oblivion by the purges of the Psionics Suppressions through their use of Clairvoyants.

 

[juvation]

Did the Octagon Society disband because of financial scandals as historical record states?

Or they didn't disband at all, but only wanted people to think they did so they could continue their work in secret.

Or, as stated above, they got hounded into oblivion by the purges of the Psionics Suppressions through their use of Clairvoyants.

thanks for the high quality responses, all.

i love the idea of the Imperium funding the OS and it then being shut down due to the Suppressions. it's very big-company lefthand-righthand stuff. and maybe the people involved decided to keep their findings from the Imperium? i think i would...

the idea that the TAS is the OS reincarnate is massive. i may need some time to deal with the repercussions of that one!

i'm not sure Tp needs a patron, never mind a Zhodani one. it seems to me to be a slow-burn type scenario where the rumours and evidence builds to the point where after a while, the octagons begin to infect your brain. then you read the epic, and you *know* there's a crashed ship with goodies close to an octagon, and then the heartbeat goes up exponentially.

 

[rje]

I think there is enough evidence to piece together an explanation.

Gentlemen, turn in your booklets...

Year 340, more or less:

Page 46(a)
Octagon Society: Established in 342, the Octagon Society was the first major distressed spacefarer assistance operation to appear in the Spinward Marches. The group thrived on public contributions and some tax revenues for 150 years;

Page 12
They once had plans to build shelters all through the Imperium

...but then they discovered the Ancients base on Fulacin, when surveying Fulacin for a shelter. A new plan was hatched, from a few execs near the top of the organization - the ones overseeing the Fulacin octagon construction.

Page 30
The entire nature of the rock within the catacombs is different from that of the octagon. The octagon is built of close-fitted, fine masonry; the rooms and carridors of the catacombs are of rough cut rock with occasional timbers to shore up ceilings and places with crumbled rock on the floor, as if from partially collapsed roofs.

The shelter there was built to facilitate the widening and strengthening of a natural fissure leading to the Ancient base. Apparently they made it, all the way to the doorstep, but lacked the knowledge and/or psionic skill to open the door.

This operation required more resources than could easily be disguised, so...

Page 51
The entire movement fell apart in the late 400s when scandal surfaced. Embezzlement had diverted much of the funds pouring into the society's coffers, and substandard shelters were being produced.

You see, they were using company construction funds to build the catacombs to the base. Enough to cause a major problem. They probably figured it was a risk worth taking.

Fast forward 600 years. The Zhodani choose Fulacin, of all places, to establish their forward base of operations in anticipation of reducing Rhylanor. Had they known about the base, they would have guarded it well, and spent some time trying to open it up. And may have succeeded. Instead, they were concerned about random people nosing about Fulacin. They know the octagon is there; they don't attach importance to it, but rather to the utmost secrecy of their mission on Fulacin.

Page 11
Fulacin/Rhylanor (0408-A674210-01. An official of MagnetoDynamics, Inc (the owning corporation of the world) is extremely helpful, answering questions and giving helpful hints about finding octagon buildings- on other worlds. He knows of none here. When pressed, he will give (reluctantly) a restricted license to look on Fulacin; with a provision that there be no prospecting.

 

[SSWarlock]

I think there is enough evidence to piece together an explanation.

An excellent piece of deduction, good sir. 'Twould seem you have the eyes of an eagle. :wink:

 

[Ishmael]

Page 46(a)
Octagon Society: Established in 342, the Octagon Society was the first major distressed spacefarer assistance operation to appear in the Spinward Marches. The group thrived on public contributions and some tax revenues for 150 years;

hmmmm
....the Knights Templar were the first major distressed pilgrim assistance operation to appear in the Holy Land. The group thrived on public contributions and some tax revenues....

Other similarities could be mined for adventure fodder.

The Society located a secret ( ancient site )* and were recognized and supported by the Imperium starting a long and uneasy alliance between the Society, with its valuable secret and growing power base, and the Imperium leadership. The Emperor wanted the secret, but the Society would not give it up as it was the Society's leverage in dealings with the Imperium.

After some time, the internal squabbling grew to a point that Imperial nobles conspired to raid the Society's holdings and ransack them for the treasure they hid. The Emperor was part of this and supported the action to bring down the Society using the Nobles as a proxy to do this as until this point, The Emperor was, publicly, a close ally of the Society.

The Society was brought down and disbanded, but the Nobles and Emperor did not find the treasure they were seeking. Society members were tried on trumped up charges of treason ( and other crimes, such as embezzlement ) and executed after interrogations.
The Fulacin location, being the source of this secret, was never listed in Society records that the Nobles ever found. Surviving Society members went underground.
Allegedly, a new organization rose from the ashes and has wide acceptance and support of ordinary citizens. TAS, perhaps.

If so, and if we take this exercise further still, and continue to cast 'Templar vs Pope' as a model for 'Society vs Emperor', and that the Society reincarnated into the TAS like the Templar reincarnated into Freemasons..
then it might be that under Imperial Law ( unenforced ), members of the TAS cannot be legal Imperial citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

Page 11
Fulacin/Rhylanor (0408-A674210-01. An official of MagnetoDynamics, Inc (the owning corporation of the world) is extremely helpful, answering questions and giving helpful hints about finding octagon buildings- on other worlds. He knows of none here. When pressed, he will give (reluctantly) a restricted license to look on Fulacin; with a provision that there be no prospecting.

So?, the operating owners of MagnetoDynamics ( and owners of the Fulacin? ) could very well be members of the Secret Society still protecting their 'secret'.
The "no prospecting" is an indication that the corporation doesn't want anyone to dig near and octagon building.

hehehehe
I like the idea that TAS members cannot be official Imperial citizens. Talk about a big hammer to hold over pc's.
Imagine if you could find proof of such a connection? What if you could actually survive the attempts to silence you? ( not death, but thrown into an asylum and every legal and illegal way to f*** over you and everyone you knew )
Without proof of such a connection, you'd just be ridiculed and be considered a conspiracy nut.

What other sites might they have worked on? Any large scale explosions during their time?

* Perhaps they had some knowledge of potentially valuable sites and the 'Society' was a front behind which they could work around these sites.

* the 'secret' of the Templar was something they found in Soloman's Temple. They began as a group of a Noble and 8 of his knights operating out of Soloman's Temple. Nine years later, despite seeming to accomplish nothing, they received backing of the Church and grew into the most powerful organization in Europe. They owned Malta and their influence could be felt in modern times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Christ_(Portugal)

scads and scads of grist for adventure writers here...

 

[juvation]

I think there is enough evidence to piece together an explanation.

An excellent piece of deduction, good sir. 'Twould seem you have the eyes of an eagle. :wink:

agreed. this is 300% of what i was hoping for. thanks for all the responses, everyone.

 

[brianfarrens]

My apologies in advance for the long post.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, juvation. I was reading the old Traveller adventures after 20+ years and came across TP last night. The adventure is still very interesting and I really like the story behind it, but I had the same reaction as you after reading it. It just doesn't make sense. LOL. I looked online for a discussion of the adventure and ended up here.

Like you said, "the base was built first, long ago... then someone comes along and finds it somehow, mostly leaves it alone, doesn't tell anyone about it, and builds a tower right on top."

But it goes further. If I remember correctly, there are droyne icons in a ring of stone around the outside base of the Octagon and there are other droyne items in the Lowest Level of the Octagon (including the counterweighted trap door set in the eight-pointed star). This lead me to the belief that the Ancients built the Octagon, or at least its lowest levels, and the many sets of descending stairs.

But that didn't make sense considering the Octagon Society and the bricked-up corridor that leads to the vault door. Come to think of it, you'd think the Ancients would have built elevators instead of nine or so sets of stairs. LOL.

Anyway, trying to make sense of the mishmash of Ancient and OS construction seems almost impossible. It might have made sense if the guy who founded the OS was originally marooned on Fulacin and just happend to find the Octagon. And, after being rescued, he founded the OS (drawing upon the octagon-shaped, one story building where he took shelter for ten years as inspiration for the name of the organization and design of the buildings). But that isn't the case. He was marooned on Beck's World (just looked it up to be sure).

I think the writer just tried to interweave too many things and ended up leaving us with a situation that just doesn't make sense. Obviously, the Ancients built the base, the vault door, the stairs, and the first floor and lowest levels of the Octagon. Aside from the Ancients not using elevators instead of stairs (I believe it's pointed out that there are no stairs in the base) and the existence of the well (there are food dispensers in the base), this makes sense.

Apparently, the Octagon Society (or someone else) found the Ancients' Octagon (and added floors to it), found the vault door (and didn't try too hard to get around it via the fissures or some other means; which, in itself, is pretty unbelieveable), decided to haul a massive amount of masonry through the trap door and down nine flights of stairs to brick up the corridor leading to the mysterious vault door, and left without coming back (we assume). This makes no sense. What are your thoughts?