A muppets reading of the victory and defeat conditions.

[cordas]

the number of models the ARMY started with=total number of models in the army list. after all that's what you start with, there isn't "on table" in that sentecne.so if you have an army of 50 models, but only deploy 12 models, you are automaticly shattered. that's all there is imo.

I think you are right.

Interpretation 2:

The starting army on and off the field is the number of models that count.
If this is the case then it is possible to construct armies that have lost as soon as they are initially deployed and thus battle need not be fought. This seems some what bizarre.

Its not bizarre, its just I (we) have been reading it backwards. Your shattering point IS 1/4 (rounding down) of the total number of models in your army (all that you are going to field). Its not that models not yet deployed are counted as dead, its that they don't count towards your on board total as they aren't yet involved in the combat, so don't supply that nice numbers feeling to those troops who are taking fire and casualties.

This is the simplest reading of I can think of of the V & D conditions, and whilst it at 1st seems ass backwards it ain't, it just requires a different perspective to what we where using. It was the Once an army has been reduced that got me / us confused, it never says reduced means models removed, it just means total number of models on table.


Read msprange comments from the Clarification on Skinnies thread and he repeatedly says read the rules and don't try and complicate them.

Yes it is possible to loose the game before even a shot has been fired or a model moved if you are the Bugs or Skinnies, deploy more than 3/4 of your troops in tunnels or ambush and you imediatly forfeit the game :shock: . Not to worry your opponent will have huge bragging rights :twisted: , but you can then start a new battle using exactly the same armies and terrain; and with a bit better deployment you can try and salvage some pride :?: .

P.S. I suppose this means I owe Xorrandor and Big Rich an appology.

 

[Hiromoon]

*coughs* Folks...it's models on the table, not models in total...

 

[cordas]

*coughs* Folks...it's models on the table, not models in total...

....that count to stop you being shattered, thats a seperate sentance to the one that tells you what your shattered number is.

 

[Hiromoon]

And yet, if you have say....30 figures in total, but only 15 of those are on the board.....it's the 15 figures that take the brunt of it and the other 15 don't count towards shatter because the other 15 are not in play (not dead, just in reserve).

Trust me, burrowing has cause some headaches.

 

[cordas]

And yet, if you have say....30 figures in total, but only 15 of those are on the board.....it's the 15 figures that take the brunt of it and the other 15 don't count towards shatter because the other 15 are not in play (not dead, just in reserve).

Trust me, burrowing has cause some headaches.

I am not sure I get what you are trying to say mate.

If you have 30 figures in your army that gives you a shatter of 7 (rounding down), you have 15 on board and 15 in tunnels, then if 8 or more of those on board get killed you are shattered (the 15 in tunnels don't count as they aren't on board). That seems to me to be deceptively simple (so simple we missed it 1st reading), no headaches needed.

 

[Hiromoon]

Trust me, it was confusing because you can target tunneling units, but the models aren't physically on the board.

 

[cordas]

Trust me, it was confusing because you can target tunneling units, but the models aren't physically on the board.

Errr not using Wave 1 units you can't. Don't go waving wave 2 units and rules at us until we can get them.

Even if you could kill tunnelling models I don't see it as relevant, as any casualties they take won't affect the number of models on table, you are just reducing the number of potential models who can jump out of the tunnel later, not doing anything that counts to shattering the enemy now.

 

[Hiromoon]

Woops... *uses flashythinggy on Cordas* You don't remember this converstation.

Edit: *snickers* Oh silly me..

Once an army has been reduced to a quarter of the number of models it started with (rounding down to a minimum of one), it is immediately
Shattered. When working out whether your army has been Shattered, you may only count models that are actually on the table – models that have
not yet been deployed (normally because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted. Models carried by other models that are on the
table such as in transport vehicles) are counted as normal.


Course, I don't think we'll be seeing endless tide anymore...

 

[Xorrandor]

Yes it is possible to loose the game before even a shot has been fired or a model moved if you are the Bugs or Skinnies, deploy more than 3/4 of your troops in tunnels or ambush and you imediatly forfeit the game :shock: . Not to worry your opponent will have huge bragging rights :twisted: , but you can then start a new battle using exactly the same armies and terrain; and with a bit better deployment you can try and salvage some pride :?: .

P.S. I suppose this means I owe Xorrandor and Big Rich an appology.

No problem, my son loves the muppets anyways...

I'm thinking there's an advantage for Arachnid players, now, though. You know that one guy you never want to play because he: is a massive rules lawyer/doesn't talk about anything but Star Trek trivia/coughs all over your figures then knocks them off the table with his elbow? Next time you have to face him in a tournament, just deploy all your Bugs as Tunneling, let him point out your "mistake", congratulate him on the win, and go grab a pizza while you wait for the next round. :wink:

 

[Hiromoon]

That'll only work till the big book comes out....

 

[Poko]

so,in conclusion, the standing definition is that the number of starting figs=total of models in the army, and only the number of models on the board is checked with that Starting number to check whether the army si shattered, da?

coz i'm a bit lost now :shock: :lol:

 

[Hiromoon]

Yes.

 

[cordas]

Course, I don't think we'll be seeing endless tide anymore...

The advanced rules may well give other V & D conditions....

Also you could figure ET into the game, you have to knock the bugs down to shatter point before they get the chance to re-enforce..... bloody harsh but if its costed properly could make for a very fraught fun afternoon of fighting the endless hordes.

Imagine a scenario like in the (1st) SST movie where you have the MI in a prepared position with heavy guns, and endless waves of bugs coming at them. The MI have to last for 15 turns or shatter the bugs, the bugs have to shatter, or destroy (specail victory condition, the name should say what it is :wink: ) the MI.

 

[Hiromoon]

I can safely say otherwise.

 

[cordas]

so,in conclusion, the standing definition is that the number of starting figs=total of models in the army, and only the number of models on the board is checked with that Starting number to check whether the army si shattered, da?

coz i'm a bit lost now :shock: :lol:

Yeah I think thats right, and you are the one who handed me the torch....

Well that is untill some other clever bugger comes along and gives us a different reading.

 

[cOwgummi]

Imagine a scenario like in the (1st) SST movie where you have the MI in a prepared position with heavy guns, and endless waves of bugs coming at them. The MI have to last for 15 turns or shatter the bugs, the bugs have to shatter, or destroy (specail victory condition, the name should say what it is :wink: ) the MI.

those scenarios tend to be boring target picking and dice rolling, static games, haaaaaaaaaate :evil: