3d Traveller subsector map

[Tom Kalbfus]

What do you think of what NASA did with plotting 100,000 stars, there were no hexes there. Maybe a Traveller map like this could be generated with the same technique for spinning it around, zooming in and zooming out, you click on a star, and World information pops up, one aditional feature would be if you clicked on one star and held the mouse button down and released it on another, a line would be drawn between the two stars, and you would get a distance in parsecs. Or maybe just by clicking on a star you would get a list of the nearest stars to it along with the UWP information. If you want a Large 3-d map, you have to implement it on a computer, and well need a means to go through that map, pick out individual stars, perhaps even edit it, add and subtract stars and so forth.

The thing is, Astrosynthesis already exists. A project like that would require full time attention and I just don't have the time to spare.

Simon Hibbs

NASA has the map, what about a program which could generate 100,000 UWP for each of them? Since NASA did it, could the source code and data be public domain perhaps? I don't know if you could do it, but if you were to start with this NASA Map, would features do you think it would need if it were to be used in Traveller? To generate 100,000 UWP, you would need to generate 600,000 random numbers at least. We would probably need a program to read in all the data that NASA has on these stars and use that to generate the UWPs. None of this would end up on paper, could be used for online gaming perhaps, a 3d-Traveller setting for instance. One problem with the map is that it stays centered on the Sun no matter what. You can rotate the map and zoom in on the Sun and zoom out, but you can't zoom in on other star systems

 

[Reynard]

Referees have enough to do designing good adventures for just a few worlds. That's why most campaigns happen in very small areas such as a subsector. 3D looks 'realistic' but doesn't add much but a pretty computer display. I love doing 3D Traveller maps more as a casual exercise in design and What If.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Referees have enough to do designing good adventures for just a few worlds. That's why most campaigns happen in very small areas such as a subsector. 3D looks 'realistic' but doesn't add much but a pretty computer display. I love doing 3D Traveller maps more as a casual exercise in design and What If.

2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space.

 

[Rick]

Referees have enough to do designing good adventures for just a few worlds. That's why most campaigns happen in very small areas such as a subsector. 3D looks 'realistic' but doesn't add much but a pretty computer display. I love doing 3D Traveller maps more as a casual exercise in design and What If.

2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space.

Yeah. Still not convinced, I'm afraid, that we are still any closer to the 'paperless society'. It's a comment that has been used since the '80's and since then we've used more paper than ever. I realise that tablets and such take us closer to that point, but the foreseeable future is still in paper.

 

[Reynard]

"2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space."

I think too many people embrace the tablet too tight. There's still a lot of paper & pencil experience out there as Traveller and most other RPGs prove even in a world of MMOs.

As to the 3D mapping accessory, I still maintain it's easy to program. I've had the books describing creation of 3D moving maps for over 20 years. The problem is it's complex and will be naturally HUGE and too much information for most campaigns. Referees simply do not need to pay for overkill.

Search 3D star maps and you see the possibilities. Winchell Chung is a good start.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/starmaps/index.php

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Referees have enough to do designing good adventures for just a few worlds. That's why most campaigns happen in very small areas such as a subsector. 3D looks 'realistic' but doesn't add much but a pretty computer display. I love doing 3D Traveller maps more as a casual exercise in design and What If.

2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space.

Yeah. Still not convinced, I'm afraid, that we are still any closer to the 'paperless society'. It's a comment that has been used since the '80's and since then we've used more paper than ever. I realise that tablets and such take us closer to that point, but the foreseeable future is still in paper.

You ever hear of e-books? That is a step closer to a paperless society. The only traveller product I have that is in paper is the core rulebook, the others are e-books. another thing is paper is heavy and it takes up space on my book shelf, and I already have too many paper books, e-books by contrast take up no physical space. The only think we were lacking up until a few years ago was a portable platform, and e-book reader, now we have several, we have no need to print things out anymore. I like most of my gaming material on my computer, books are heavy and not very portable. I used to have whole bookshelves of Dungeons and Dragons products, right not they are mostly in boxes if I haven't given them away. My wife doesn't like to see bookshelves of these things, so if I keep them on my hard drive, so much the better.

Also I noticed various book stores that sell paper books are going out of business, whatever happened to Borders Books? A number of Barnes and Noble Book stores have closed, I can see the trend towards a paperless society. Once e-book readers become cheap enough, there would be no reason for anyone to have a book shelf full of paper books.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

"2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space."

I think too many people embrace the tablet too tight. There's still a lot of paper & pencil experience out there as Traveller and most other RPGs prove even in a world of MMOs.

As to the 3D mapping accessory, I still maintain it's easy to program. I've had the books describing creation of 3D moving maps for over 20 years. The problem is it's complex and will be naturally HUGE and too much information for most campaigns. Referees simply do not need to pay for overkill.

Search 3D star maps and you see the possibilities. Winchell Chung is a good start.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/starmaps/index.php

Doesn't Traveller have an algorythm for generating UWP? Seems to me it could create its own information and just store the information created, we don't need human hands to do that. Only later do people go over it and make some changes to what the computer has created. Computers can even write descriptions that read as if a human writer wrote them in some cases. It doesn't appear as much work as you say, we can certainly generate the UWP with a simple algorythm. Once generated it could be a shared resource on the web much as the Traveller Map is today.

 

[simonh]

2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space.

Tablets are fine for reference, I always have my iPad at the gaming table and use it a fair bet when I GM, but it's not good for sharing information with other people at the table. For that, paper is better.

The problem with 3D at the gaming table is that interaction with a 3D interface is a solo activity. Discussing 3D relationships with a group, showing those relationships and discussing options outside of trivial cases just isn't practical IMHO. You can print off a subsector map with 20 worlds on it a couple of times and share them round the table and in a few minutes everyone will understand the situation. Trying to do the same with 20 worlds in a 3D environment is exponentially harder to show, explain and discuss.

I do think Pseudo-3D is viable because it's easy to represent on a flat medium, screen or paper, and much easier to reason about than full 3D.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

2D is for paper and pen games, but the future is in tablet computers, paper in general will be used less and less. If you don't have to use paper, you don't need 2D representations of 3d space.

Tablets are fine for reference, I always have my iPad at the gaming table and use it a fair bet when I GM, but it's not good for sharing information with other people at the table. For that, paper is better.

The problem with 3D at the gaming table is that interaction with a 3D interface is a solo activity. Discussing 3D relationships with a group, showing those relationships and discussing options outside of trivial cases just isn't practical IMHO. You can print off a subsector map with 20 worlds on it a couple of times and share them round the table and in a few minutes everyone will understand the situation. Trying to do the same with 20 worlds in a 3D environment is exponentially harder to show, explain and discuss.

I do think Pseudo-3D is viable because it's easy to represent on a flat medium, screen or paper, and much easier to reason about than full 3D.

Simon Hibbs

What if everybody had their own tablet and were referencing the same document on the cloud. or what if they were using the Ocular or the Microsoft Hololens? Hololens can project a 3-d object among real world objects among those using it. For tablets one would need a pointer so others could view what was being referenced in their tablets. Also with Hololens, you could actually step inside a Scout/Courier or a Free Trader or even a Mercenary Cruiser, the potential exists for that!

 

[Reynard]

Not everyone can afford an expensive smartphone or tablet so they get left out. Buying the books is FAR cheaper for a lot of people.

 

[simonh]

What if everybody had their own tablet and were referencing the same document on the cloud. or what if they were using the Ocular or the Microsoft Hololens? Hololens can project a 3-d object among real world objects among those using it. For tablets one would need a pointer so others could view what was being referenced in their tablets. Also with Hololens, you could actually step inside a Scout/Courier or a Free Trader or even a Mercenary Cruiser, the potential exists for that!

What if they did?

It could be a fantastic experience, but it would also be incredibly expensive in hardware and software, and everyone would have to invest deeply in the same platform. And for what? Which pressing problem facing Traveller referees and players, that is compromising their enjoyment of the game, would this solve? I just don't see true multi axis 3d mapping as being a particularly big problem for Traveller. If that's the experience you want, there are games out there like the latest version of Elite that provide it.

Simon Hibbs.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Not everyone can afford an expensive smartphone or tablet so they get left out. Buying the books is FAR cheaper for a lot of people.

Now it is, in the future a smart phone might be as expensive as a pocket calculator. Remember when calculators were expensive? In 5 to 10 years smart phones will be cheap, as will tablet computers, VR goggles will be the equivalent of a head phone, I think for that era, we may want a 3d Traveller map, we might as well start thinking about it now, I imagine in another decade people won't bother with paper books, they will just download what they want to read on their portable electronic devices, newspapers will be a thing of the past too, people wil just download the daily news onto their computers and read it their, I think there still will be toilet paper though.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

What if everybody had their own tablet and were referencing the same document on the cloud. or what if they were using the Ocular or the Microsoft Hololens? Hololens can project a 3-d object among real world objects among those using it. For tablets one would need a pointer so others could view what was being referenced in their tablets. Also with Hololens, you could actually step inside a Scout/Courier or a Free Trader or even a Mercenary Cruiser, the potential exists for that!

What if they did?

It could be a fantastic experience, but it would also be incredibly expensive in hardware and software, and everyone would have to invest deeply in the same platform. And for what? Which pressing problem facing Traveller referees and players, that is compromising their enjoyment of the game, would this solve? I just don't see true multi axis 3d mapping as being a particularly big problem for Traveller. If that's the experience you want, there are games out there like the latest version of Elite that provide it.

Simon Hibbs.

You have to look to the future, not the now. In ten years tablets will be dirt cheap and ubiquitous, it would be no more a bother to buy one of those than it is to buy a cheap $20 pocket calculator today! What is expensive today will be cheap tomorrow, that is Moore's Law.

 

[Reynard]

I still prefer a book big enough to read, not the same book scaled down to a card. Now scale a 3D map down and lose any semblance of details.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I still prefer a book big enough to read, not the same book scaled down to a card. Now scale a 3D map down and lose any semblance of details.

There are tablets the size of books, not as thick or as fat as some books, and you need only one tablet to read all your electronic books, which don't take up any physical space at all! How about this, you invite you friends or relatives over or your wife's in-laws, and they see a bookshelf full of RPG games. Do you want all your casual acquaintances to know about your gaming hobby just by looking at your book shelf? If they are on my hard drive or in the cloud, no one can see them unless I choose to show it to them. However they look at my bookshelf and they think "Gamer geek" Now if they just see novels, they won't think anything. Maybe I want my living room with bookshelf to look normal, with e-books it can,

 

[Condottiere]

You can probably rely on the Chinese manufacturers to find a way to produce cheap smart phones.

There's a plateau on capabilities, at which point you have diminishing returns; except possibly on graphics and battery life. And even there, human eyesight maxes out at 8K and materials hit the physics wall.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

There is the law of accelerating returns.

 

[Reynard]

Tom, I have an eight foot by fifteen foot room in my house with three huge book cases dedicated to my gaming books and materials and a four tiered book case in my living room for the game stuff I access most often. Books on a shelves in a room creates a concept it seems today's people don't remember - a library. People know I game and I am proud of it! If someone is ashamed of the hobby they really shouldn't be in it.

Yes, there are tablets the size of books (almost) and can almost be read in daylight and they also cost a fortune! Add in buying e-versions of the game books and the cost climbs. For all that money, I bought a lot of books that are portable, easily readable without squinting and can be referenced like lightning if you ever used a book in your life plus they don't become useless for want of a power supply. Books on electronic devices have their uses and I do have one (Kindle) but they're just not, to me, reliable or cost efficient now.

And back to the subject, I have made a 3D map that's actually readable. All 3D star coordinates from the 2300 Near Star List are in a spreadsheet that calculated the number of jumps between every star. I had a maximum Jump 3 for the campaign so the links between stars were only Jumps 1-3 and keep the map clean yet informative to the access and shape of the map. The sheets with the jump information make it simple to pick two stars and know the jump.

The example of the Near Star List show you don't need a thousand stars for a game and not every system must be habitable (I used other sources for real star information kept flare stars) so a 3D map remains small and manageable with not so much effort.

 

[simonh]

Funny. I have a 6" x 4" book shelf of RPGs, reference books and board games in my living room, right next to the TV. Everyone I now knows I'm a gamer geek, including at work.I know some people are shy about it, that's ok, maybe they had bad experiences, but it's never been a problem for me.

As for thinking 10 years in advance, I can imagine all sorts of possible advances in the future, but which ones will become reality? How can I be sure any work I do on that now will be an effective use of my time? Why spend time preparing for possible games in 10 years time, when I have games I want to run this year?

10 years ago modern smartphones and tablet computers hadn't even been invented. If I had known they would be 10 years in advance, what could I have done to prepare to use it for traveller games that far in advance?

Maybe I'm missing the point. If you want to be highly speculative and talk about possible future forms of RPG using speculative technology I suppose that's fine. From a practical perspective I'm more concerned about how to use the technology we have now to help solve the actual real problems I have right now if I want to run a game of Traveller, or any of my other favourite RPGs.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Tom, I have an eight foot by fifteen foot room in my house with three huge book cases dedicated to my gaming books and materials and a four tiered book case in my living room for the game stuff I access most often. Books on a shelves in a room creates a concept it seems today's people don't remember - a library. People know I game and I am proud of it! If someone is ashamed of the hobby they really shouldn't be in it.

Yes, there are tablets the size of books (almost) and can almost be read in daylight and they also cost a fortune! Add in buying e-versions of the game books and the cost climbs. For all that money, I bought a lot of books that are portable, easily readable without squinting and can be referenced like lightning if you ever used a book in your life plus they don't become useless for want of a power supply. Books on electronic devices have their uses and I do have one (Kindle) but they're just not, to me, reliable or cost efficient now.

And back to the subject, I have made a 3D map that's actually readable. All 3D star coordinates from the 2300 Near Star List are in a spreadsheet that calculated the number of jumps between every star. I had a maximum Jump 3 for the campaign so the links between stars were only Jumps 1-3 and keep the map clean yet informative to the access and shape of the map. The sheets with the jump information make it simple to pick two stars and know the jump.

The example of the Near Star List show you don't need a thousand stars for a game and not every system must be habitable (I used other sources for real star information kept flare stars) so a 3D map remains small and manageable with not so much effort.

No in fact only few are habitable. Gaming is not so much a secret as much as my wife don't like looking at my role playing books, she wants them out of sight. When they are e-books, she doesn't see them. As for a gaming room, I live in a small apartment with my three children and wife, their are no spare rooms to use for gaming, and certain things like large gaming maps that spread out over the floor aren't practical to use. When they exist in virtual reality, I can scroll to whatever part I need.