2300AD: The Problem with Manchu

The government of PRC have spent a lot of time promoting "one people". (which means that someone who is ethnically Chinese but born in Bolton in the UK) would be more Chinese than person born to European parents who has never left China for 3 generations. The differences between Han and Manchus pale into insignificance. And I guestimate that post-Twilight, that will matter even less.

The 1980s setup of 2300AD was always more about anxiety than accuracy.

Yeah, the official canon story relies on some kind of noteworthy Manchu resurgence. They've been pretty assimilated now, but it isn't within the bounds of reason that there could be a revanchist cultural revival (which also turns into imperialism). With those assumptions, the naming and story do end up making sense.

It would be interesting to learn about the original mega-game that was played to figure out what happened post-Twilight which resulted in the 2300 AD history. Maybe there was a Qing Dynasty enthuasiast in there who ran with it.
 
Yeah, the official canon story relies on some kind of noteworthy Manchu resurgence.

Resurgence and migration and adoption of a term which is associated with invasion and massacre. The Manchus didn’t even call their land Manchuria.

They've been pretty assimilated now, but it isn't within the bounds of reason that there could be a revanchist cultural revival (which also turns into imperialism). With those assumptions, the naming and story do end up making sense.

With what we know now, I think these cultural revivals are even less likely

It would be interesting to learn about the original mega-game that was played to figure out what happened post-Twilight which resulted in the 2300 AD history. Maybe there was a Qing Dynasty enthuasiast in there who ran with it.

Except that when it was played it was a very different world. And depends on the whole Twilight War as a thing (which pay not be desirable).
 
Tbh, this is one of the main reasons I never got into 2300 despite liking the style of ships. I was never particularly interested in 19th century redux as a setting in the first place. And these kinds of real world politics arguments kept popping up in the discussions any time I did try to look into it.

Admittedly, it didn't help that most of the people I knew who liked 2300 were big Twilight 2000 fans and that kind of mil fiction isn't my style of gameplay and they made it sound like 2300 was more of the same, but in space.
 
I've never understood the accusation that 2k3 was "19th century." GDW had a sci-fi Victorian game in the shape of Space:1889, and this wasn't it.

I guess it is the fact that nations survived, and compete. Let me point out that until ca. 2280 the "French Peace" basically held. Nationalism was relatively low, and there was a lot of cooperation. On Earth, rogue nations like Argentina, Indonesia and Iran were largely contained. This was shattered by the Central Asian War which was kicked off by the Manchurian annexation of Xinjiang and soon adopted the aspects of a WW4.

France was shown to be overextended as the global hegemon, and revisionist powers arose. In America, the American Party has arisen on a platform of "Make America Great Again," and President Joe Orsaluk has used the Kafer threat to invoke war powers and is ruling by diktat. The old Bundesrepublik fell in Germany* and Schumpeter arose there. In France a military junta was formed, but it was fallen and France is reverting back towards liberalism under Ruffin.

If anything, Earth is more like the 1930's, with revisionist powers wanting to assert themselves. This has been disrupted by the Kafer threat.

* "Bavaria" is actually the old BRD's successor. In Twilight:2000 the capital was moved to Nurnberg, and Helmutt Korell (who gave his name to the German warship at 1st Alpha Centauri) secured the continuation of the BRD when he basically got all the American heavy equipment during the Going Home module but stayed loyal rather than setting up a petty fiefdom.
 
D'Artagnon is a French outpost. There is no Indonesian outpost at Barnard's. The nearer parts of the Chinese Arm are:

Barnard's Star: Manchurian (2153, edit, not Mancunian) and American* (2160) planetary outpost with 0.71 G
Seurier: French/ESA (2159) outpost (0.21 G)
Broward**: American outpost (2172, 0.26 G)
DM-26 12026: Manchurian (2172), Argentine (2175), French/ESA (2175) outpost (0.97 G)
Davout: French/ESA (2184) and Japanese (2211) outposts (0.76 G)
D'Artagnon: French/ESA (2185, 0.65 G)
Cold Mountain: first Manchuian colony (2201)

In 2187 the British (not acting with ESA in this case) establish a national outpost at Clarke's Star, which is where the future American Arm forks off.

Incidently, GDW gave this area of space a name, right in the original publication of Traveller:2300 in 1986. The Anjou write-up says this area is the Seurier Cluster.
 
Going all the way back to the OP on this one.
Firstly, most Westerners are not deeply read into Chinese history and especially Chinese colonial history. You'll find the term 'Manchu' in respected textbooks and military histories all over the place. It is an ethnological and philogical error? It seems it is. But there is no ill-intent with the 2300AD game designers insofar as the term is used. The designers meant 'Northern China', what we think of a China nowadays as fragmented into three separate states like Germany was before the War of Reunification.
If the writers of 2300AD had called it 'Manchu-Kuo' after the Chinese collaborationist state of War Two, that would be an entirely different thing. That would literally be like referring to Poland as 'Warteland', the Nazi German term for about 2/3 rds of conquered Poland. These are both terms with a lot of negative historical weight to them, just as you posit that 'Manchu' does.
I don't see anything wrong with calling 2300s 'Manchuria' the 'North Chinese Empire'. It is, after all, ruled by a Daughter of Heaven - although I don't know the Chinese traditional title of a ruling empress. I've only seen the term 'Son of Heaven' used.
As for 2300's Northern China being mysterious, that was intentional by the writers of the original T:2300 way back when. They simply slapped a label on the primary power on the Asian mainland, inferred some stuff about tensions between warlord and the empress and then went on their merry way making the French Arm the focus of the whole game. Sure there was some planet descriptions and the odd article about the goings on over in the Rump Arm, but the Chinese were written so loosely that referees could essentially do what they wanted with the region and there was very little canon to say them nay. Later editions, even with Mongoose 2300AD have kept that loose structure.
Now, I personally think that having something major politically happen in the Chinese Arm to counterbalance the Kafer Invasion would be awesome. For one thing, it would tie all the Tier 3 nations down while all the big dogs surge toward BCV.
 
It seems unlikely a Chinese successor state is likely to use that name.

Rumour has it that northern China is demographically collapsing.

Let me think.

It might be like the French decided to name their next republic Angevin.
 
Are Chinese offended by the term Manchuria, or are westerners offended on their behalf? If the former, by all means change it. If only the latter, get over it. No need to rewrite everything to accommodate the squeakiest wheel.
 
Are Chinese offended by the term Manchuria, or are westerners offended on their behalf? If the former, by all means change it. If only the latter, get over it. No need to rewrite everything to accommodate the squeakiest wheel.
Fair question.
There is a great quote said during the NFL's long discussion about the Washington Redskins name. This was in the 70s and a Black Washington player was asked by a remarkably insensitive reporter what he thought of the name of the team he played for. The player replied, "It doesn't matter what I think about. What matters is what they think about it."
 
I believe that the intention was to recreate the War of the Five Dynsasties or the War of the Kingdoms period in Chinese history.

Given the horrific loss of life during and in the aftermath of the Twilight War a lot of 20th Century nations vanished. Note that over time the Maps have varied but a huge number of nation states broke up or were absorbed into new larger organisations.

So maybe in the post-apocolyptic world after the Twilight war breakaway entities chose historical names to give them legitimacy?

So a lot of people with strong opinions on the current geopolitical state of the world could be offended by a fictional version of the world set 300 years after a nuclear WW3.

However I suspect that those people aren't playing Traveller 2300.

If you start changing things because one group or another is offended where do you stop? As someone already mentioned D&D in its attempts to placate one noisy group merely offended another noisy group so now its is as bland as it is possible to be and still people are offended.

Heck, even I ran into this with the free Traveller stuff I am creating. I got DMed by a person on Reddit telling me that several of my system maps were wrong. Fine, I am always open to feedback, so I asked for the source the person was using, only to get a really hostile response.

I figured out that this person had their own homebrew and wanted that represented even though I clearly stated that I am using Mongoose sources, then the wiki, and then my own interpretation.

So I told that person I wasn't changing anything, which resulted in that person downvoting every post I make on Reddit, which is amusing as I don't care, but it shows that there are people who are so wed to their own opinions that they go nuts if you just say no.
 
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When I was a PhD student I asked our two Chinese students about the name. The answer was, after they worked out what I was asking, that China looks like a Chicken, and Manchuria was an old name for the head of the Chicken.

Manchuria seems to originate with the Soviet puppet state created ca. 1993 in the Sino-Soviet War. The question is essentially what do Russians call it?
 
So the question then becomes 'what do we call China without being too 'colonial' about it?'

I submit that 'Han Chinese Successor State #731' is probably not a workable solution, then neither is 'The Middle Kingdom Under Heaven' or 'The Han Chinese Dominated Northern Pacific Alliance'.

2300AD canon simply describes the Empire of Manchuria as [and I'm using analogies here] 'a fragmentary successor state of the PRC ruled by an Empress with limited control and warlords who theoretically owe her fealty but operate largely independently'. And this is exactly the same political conditions that existed in China from the Boxer Rebellion through to the Kuomintang.

If people from outside the gaming community want to get bitchy about their sacred homeland got treated in the timeline, they should consider the indignities suffered by the US: a third of the country conquered [including two of the most populous and important states] by Mexico, a power we traditionally don't have a lot of respect for, the US reduced to a Third World power, and a Second Civil War that prevented it's reunification for 50 years. The US was reduced to it's 1840's borders. And this is on top of having every gas station and industrial facility nuked.

My point here is that the Great Game that went from the Twilight War to 2300 didn't spare anybody. Everybody but France got hit was a huge slice of humble pie topped off with a large dollop of crow gravy.

So setting aside the complaints of people who don't know or understand the 2300 setting, what do we call the empire centered on Beijiang?

I myself would like to see some development of the Chinese and their area of influence but until the label issue get's settle we're stuck calling it 'China X'.
 
There's an imposed nationalism, at the moment, so the touchy part from them is more about racial entitlement, and loyalty.

What they'd name an interstellar polity, probably depends on what ideology is adopted, or retained.
 
There is no Empress etc. in prime canon. That's fanon adopted by Colin.

GDW prime canon says:

Manchuria, China and Canton speak different languages (Manchurian, Mandarin and Cantonese). George Stahl on the Bayern speaks Manchurian.

The main description is:

"China: Traditional China was virtually ungovernable in the collapse of world governments
after World War Ill, national minorities pressed for independence while the central economy
of China proved unable to handle the greater and greater demands placed on it Monolithic
China split itself into three nations: Canton (southern China), China (north of the Yangtze, but
south of Beijing), and Manchuria (northern China, plus Tibet and western China). Industrialized
Manchuria carefully grabbed the wasteland resource regions of western China and Tibet in a
foresightful attempt to support future expansion The rest of China split along agricultural lines
Canton has a hot wet climate, the reduced China has a cooler climate."

and

"
Manchuria Manchuria maintains a total of 14 colonies and outposts,
the second largest number of all of Earth’s nations
It holds colonies on five worlds; Delta Pavonis, Epsilon Indi, Zeta Tucanae,
Tau Ceti, and Epsilon Eridani. Its outposts are in nine systems DM - 26
12026, Xiuning, Junliang, Serurier, DM - 15 6290, Haifeng, DM + 1 4774, and
DM + 4 123 (an enclave on the Eber homeworld). One motivation for such a farflung
space program may be that Manchuria has always been greatly concerned with
progress and expansion, even as far back as the early part of the 20th century,
when it served as the industrial center of China. Not all of Manchuria’s colony
worlds receive the support that other nations give to their colonies. however.
Manchurian colonists are often expected to strive against very primitive conditions,
but they take great pride in their ability to do so."

When stutterwarp was discovered it was China that started operating starships (placing the breakup later?). China was the French rival in the early 23rd century. Canton tried invading Indochina in 2030, but was beaten back by France. Canton fought Indonesia over another Indochina war in 2264-8. The Central Asian War was started over Manchurian annexation of Xinjiang. Manchuria launched the first manned expedition to Mercury in the early 22nd century, before stutterwarp.

Manchuria and Canton had different players in the Great Game. The Manchurian currency is the ruble. They expelled the Japanese from Korea in the 21st century. In the 21st Century Manchuria annexed the Amur region of Siberia. The Manchurians helped Canada establish their colony on Doris, and of their 5 colonies, only one (Cold Mountain) is really Manchurian, with other nations operating in the others.

At the turn of the 23rd century, Manchuria was dependent upon exports from the ESA colonies, and much of their shipping was dedicated to that. This ended ca. 2250 when their own colonies started being productive. Manchuria supported the ESA over the right to claim planets.

Hanshan - buddist monk and poet (Chinese, should be Alin i Beikuwen in Manchu). Settled in 2208, after a decade of exploration (2201 by the CA) The planet is brutal, with a high death rate, and Manchuria keeps shoveling people there as a matter of national pride. It took 50 years for the colony to start producing minerals. The colony is highly protectionist, and the colonists are very xenophobic.

Chyuantii (Chinese, should be Gubci in Manchu) on Syuhlahm (bad Chinese, should be Fuldun in Manchu). Although a Manchurian colony in name, they brought in Europeans etc. to run it, and Britain settled and runs a large chunk of it as "New Liverpool."

Chengdu (Chinese, a city in the nation of Canton, the city is Cengdu in Manchu) has two colonies. Anyou ("peaceful," Huwaliyasun in Manchu) is a mining colony governed by a Committee which is Manchu ethnic. Shaoguan ("beautiful pass," a Chinese city, Gingcihiyan Guwan in Manchu) is only half Manchu, with the other half being British Commonwealth citizens.

Kwantung (the Chinese name for Manchuria, Manju in Manchu) could not be filled with regular colonists, and so was converted into a penal colony. It rebelled in the 2250's, and now is autonomous and Manchurian in name only. The incoming Mexican "colony" (it isn't an independent colony) is continuous, and the whole settlement speaks Manchu.

Dukou (the old name for the Chinese city of Panzhihua, literally "ferry" and hence Dogon in Manchu) was founded as a really harsh penal colony, based on the success of the one on Kwantung, but they didn't have enough prisoners, and so asked for other nations to send them prisoners. In 2294 the status of penal colony was ended (because they literally couldn't get the prisoners), and the colony opened to settlement from outsiders. 10% of the population are French, Mexican or Anglo. The colony is now a corporation.

Literally only Hanshan is "Manchurian," with the other colonies highly settled by Europeans etc. or as penal colonies, with the Manchurian government having little control.

Ranger stated Manchuria considers the Chinese Arm as "theirs" and they control access to 82 Eridani. Both Texas and the UAR lack the ships to maintain a presence, and Manchuria does all the shipping. Both human "colonies" are subject to Manchuria.

The ECS says:

"
MANCHURIA
During the 20th century, Manchuria was the most industrialized region of the nation of China
Extensive rail lines covered the area, bringing raw materials to Manchuria’s manufacturing centers
With the collapse of a central Chinese government just after the Twilight War, Manchuria declared
its independence, and with foresight, it seized mineral-rich lands around it, including much of
western China and all of Tibet

During the 21 st century, industrialized Manchuria found itself to be the major regional power,
and it filled this role willingly Shaping the traditional values of its people to the needs of developing
technology, it remained at the forefront through the next two centuries as well, challenging even
the power of France in the realm of Asia.

Manchuria’s mineral resources also yielded up tantalum, which ensured that the nation would
remain a world power as it developed off-world colonies. The nature of these off-world colonies
says much about the character of the Manchurian people-in most cases, colonists are set down
on a planet with almost no resources and are expected to either tame the environment they find
themselves in or adapt themselves to it. Manchurian colonies are therefore proud, tightly knit
groups of people demonstrating the culture of the Terran Manchus from which they spring."

It is generally clear that Manchuria, China and Canton divided along ethnic lines. The Manchurians are the Inner Mongolians reasserting themselves.
 
Fair enough, Brynn.
But I want to make a key point here: Colin Dunn is the lead dog in Mongoose's edition of 2300AD, just as MJ Dougherty, Geir Landesskog and others contribute to Mongoose's Traveller. Frank Chadwick and Marc Miller have turned over the reins and that means changes to the property.
None of that changes the basic IY2300 factor, of course. Your game is your game and that's all good.
 
Fair enough, Brynn.
But I want to make a key point here: Colin Dunn is the lead dog in Mongoose's edition of 2300AD, just as MJ Dougherty, Geir Landesskog and others contribute to Mongoose's Traveller. Frank Chadwick and Marc Miller have turned over the reins and that means changes to the property.
None of that changes the basic IY2300 factor, of course. Your game is your game and that's all good.
Aww, come on, Bryn wouldn't have nearly as much of anything to say if you rule out complaining about Colin being a blasphemer. It's at least 50% of his output. It's almost, but not quite, to the point of outweighing the actually useful knowledge he has. But I'd rather still have the actual knowledge he gives.
 
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