2300AD: The Problem with Manchu

lategamer

lategamer

Cosmic Mongoose
The thread on the Käfer/Kaefer stimulated this thought process (and maybe suggests with recent developments that 2300AD needs it's own forum)
  • Manchuria* is an anachronistic, politically loaded term in the real world; the RPG inherited it from 1980s geopolitics.
  • Using it uncritically in 2300AD today feels outdated (or worse), so let’s reframe it in a way that both honours the setting and aligns with modern understandings of China’s development trajectory.
Would there be reception to updating the detail taking into account the changes we have witnessed? Maybe rename it the Sino-Pacific Arm?

Sino-Pacific Federation (中太联邦)

稳定·和谐·多元
Wěndìng · Héxié · Duōyuán
Stability · Harmony · Diversity


By the 2300s, the SPF emerges from:
  • Post-Twilight War fragmentation
  • Economic rebuilding
  • Demographic restructuring
  • A soft-power foreign policy legacy
It is not a caricatured authoritarian regime.

So, leveraging the modern ASEAN
  • Belt & Road–style interconnectivity, projection of soft power through economics
  • Consultative governance (democracy to the level of communities), with problem solving through technology
  • Mutual development agreements with client states all over the world
  • Diaspora networks (one nation)
On the Arm and beyond, the SPF might finance ports, colonies and medtech and is always an open partner on other arms. Their philosophy is about expanding trade - because without trade, there is war. They thrive when their neighbours thrive (or, more cynically, we need our customers earning money so they can buy our stuff).

*Why not Manchuria
“Manchuria” is a colonial-era exonym, not a native name. The word Manchuria (满洲 / 滿洲 in Chinese, “Manzhou”) was never used by the local populations. The term was invented and popularised by European imperial powers in the 19th century. It's as bad as using "The Orient".
 
Manchuria seems to ultimately derive from the Soviet occupied part of China, much like Canton is greater Taiwan (or so) and the rump PRC is in the middle.

The major issue is that someone added a zero to the population in the E/CS. Most Chinese people live in the south (Canton).
 
Bryn the 2300AD guy said:
Manchuria seems to ultimately derive from the Soviet occupied part of China, much like Canton is greater Taiwan (or so) and the rump PRC is in the middle.
The major issue is that someone added a zero to the population in the E/CS. Most Chinese people live in the south (Canton).
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Which may have had the highest casualties in the Twilight War.

Either way, Manchuria wouldn't be chosen by any population in the region...but I'm sure it looked fine in 1986.
 
Bryn the 2300AD guy said:
Or, a mistake has been made and the wrong name has been used for the Chinese Arm...
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A mistake implies that it was done .. accidentally?

I think it was done to include other populations in the wider region (Siberia, Japan) but the meaning wasn’t thought through. But as a casual name invented by Europeans for an arm of known space where they don’t use the same alphabet… sure.
 
The French Arm is also a horrendous piece of racism as everyone knows the imaginary future Space French would actually call it le bras français. When will this brutal oppression through exonyms stop? I weep for our French cousins - sorry that was racist of me - for nos cousins français.

Or we could just stop trying to import divisive campus politics into our imaginary space game. God forbid that Edward Said is upset at our imaginary space toponyms.
 
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Endie said:
The French Arm is also a horrendous piece of racism as everyone knows the imaginary future Space French would actually call it le bras français. When will this brutal oppression through exonyms stop? I weep for our French cousins - sorry that was racist of me - for nos cousins français.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between language and a term that no-one in the region would use because of the association with massacres.
 
lategamer said:
There's a difference between language and a term that no-one in the region would use because of the association with massacres.
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Maybe decades of violent struggle, far-reaching change and radical political realignment change the language people use?

Maybe we should add extensive trigger warnings to our rpg rule books: “warning: this product contains scenes of violence, murder, theft, organised crime… oh and evocative exonyms.”

Constant and invasive insertion of political mandates have already made D&D into something very different from what it once was. Maybe don’t launch the next campaign over Righthink and purity tests in Traveller.
 
lategamer said:
Please put this thread on Ignore. Then you won't get so offended by it.
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Heh my wrongthink upsets you? Speak to Mongoose and see if you can get me cancelled or deplatformed!

As an aside, I’m not offended: each of my posts - this one included - has been largely made up of ironic humour making fun of your 2014-era suggestion.
 
lategamer said:
No, I'd just rather you didn't derail a creative thread with your politics and sensitivity. Just move on.
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Policing language is not “creative”, but your five star review of your own ideas is certainly the sort of self-image we could all do with a bit more of!

Disagreement is not derailing.
 
Looking at the Star Chart, the Gateway to the Manchurian Arm is Delta Pavonis (as stated in the main books) but to get to Delta Pavonis is a little more convoluted.

1. Sol to Barnards Star (5.9) - America/Manchuria/Indonesia
2. Barnards Star to Serurier (5.4) - Manchuria / France
3. Serurier to Broward (7.6) - America
4. Broward to DM-26 12026 (6.6) - Argentina
5. DM-26 12026 to Davout 6.8 - Japan/France
6. Davout to D'Artagnon (0.8) - no outposts or colonies
7. D'Artagnon to Delta Pavonis (6.1)

(A fast ship may avoid Davout/D'Artagnon and travel from DM-26 12606 to DM-46 15540 (6.4, has no colonies), then to L347-14 (6.4) and then to Delta Pavonis (6.9). This will be the same number of stops and would cost more fuel but ... it avoids certain worlds. Going from Davout to D'Artagnon is a sufficiently short hop that it may be combined with the previous hop or the next one.

The gateway to this is actually Serurier which has outposts from both the French and the Manchus, but to be sure, there is discomfort that access to their "arm" means passing under the gaze of the Americans.

This suggests cordial relations between the SPF and other nations at the very least - possibly because the Manchurian Arm is considered a much more rough route. Nations holding colonies or outposts in the region: Manchuria, Japan, German, "Arabia", Canton, Texan, Incan Republic, Canada, Nigeria, Life Foundation, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil.

(there's two mentions of Jumpers and a 20ly limit for those early vessels on page 4, I'm sure that's covered more elsewhere, I'm still chewing through the vagueries of this edition)
 

Encyclopédie Galactique Edition Française​

Entrée : Fédération Sino-Pacifique (FSP / SPF)​


La Fédération Sino-Pacifique (FSP), souvent abrégée SPF en anglais, est une alliance interétatique d’Asie orientale et du Pacifique comprenant principalement la Manchourie, la Cantonésie, le Japon, ainsi que plusieurs États du littoral asiatique et insulaire. La FSP fonctionne avant tout comme un bloc économique et scientifique, coordonnant les projets d’exploration, les normes technologiques et les corridors commerciaux dans l’hémisphère oriental. Plutôt qu’une union politique centralisée, il s’agit d’une coopération institutionnelle souple, fondée sur le consensus et la complémentarité entre ses membres. Certaines nations, telles que le Canada ou le Nigeria, disposent d’un statut affilié leur permettant de participer aux programmes de recherche et aux réseaux commerciaux de la FSP sans adhésion complète. Les relations avec les États-Unis et la République du Texas restent distantes mais correctes, marquées par des intérêts spatiaux parfois concurrents. Avec la France, la FSP entretient des échanges empreints de respect mutuel, notamment dans les domaines scientifique et diplomatique, malgré des approches très différentes de la colonisation interstellaire. Au-delà de Delta Pavonis, l’influence de la FSP est particulièrement visible, ses colonies et stations privilégiant un modèle coopératif, méthodique et résolument tourné vers le dialogue interculturel.

Official Translation (was written in English and translated by Google)​

Entry: Sino-Pacific Federation (SPF)​

The Sino-Pacific Federation (SPF) is an inter-state alliance of East Asian and Pacific nations, composed primarily of Manchuria, Canton, Japan, and several coastal and island states of the region. The SPF functions chiefly as an economic and scientific bloc, coordinating exploration initiatives, technological standards, and trade corridors throughout the eastern hemisphere. Rather than a centralized political union, it is a flexible institutional partnership built on consensus and complementarity among its members. Several nations, such as Canada and Nigeria, maintain affiliated status, allowing them to participate in SPF research programs and commercial networks without full membership. Relations with the United States and the Republic of Texas remain distant but correct, shaped by occasionally competing strategic interests. With France, the SPF maintains exchanges marked by mutual respect, particularly in scientific and diplomatic arenas, despite very different approaches to interstellar colonisation. Beyond Delta Pavonis, the SPF’s influence is particularly visible, its colonies and stations favouring a cooperative, methodical model firmly oriented toward intercultural dialogue.
 
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