2300AD: MHD Turbines, Huh?!

OneTrikPony

Mongoose
I'm trying to figure out how People on King get into orbit and I notice that the Magnetohydrodynamic turbine and Magnetoplasmadynamic thruster are the primary means of propulsion for maneuver drives.

Looking into what these things actually are I've become convinced that this is complete BS.
AFAICS an MHD turbine generates electricity from a working fluid and a MHD thruster generates thrust in a working fluid from electricity. Seems like a cyclical non starter to me. Has humanity invented the propetual motion machine in 2300AD?

What am I missing here? Why didn't they just use Nuclear Thermal Rockets?
 
from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

Spacecraft propulsion

A number of experimental methods of spacecraft propulsion are based on magnetohydrodynamic principles. In these the working fluid is usually a plasma or a thin cloud of ions. Some of the techniques include various kinds of ion thruster, the magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, and the variable specific impulse magnetoplasma rocket.

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoplasmadynamic_thruster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Specific_Impulse_Magnetoplasma_Rocket (VASIMR)
 
OneTrikPony said:
AFAICS an MHD turbine generates electricity from a working fluid and a MHD thruster generates thrust in a working fluid from electricity.
The MHD turbine is the power plant which generates the electricity
required by the plasma drive to generate the thrust.
 
Wil Mireu said:
from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

Spacecraft propulsion

A number of experimental methods of spacecraft propulsion are based on magnetohydrodynamic principles. In these the working fluid is usually a plasma or a thin cloud of ions. Some of the techniques include various kinds of ion thruster, the magnetoplasmadynamic thruster, and the variable specific impulse magnetoplasma rocket.

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoplasmadynamic_thruster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Specific_Impulse_Magnetoplasma_Rocket (VASIMR)

Thanks for your answers but, that's what I was reading when I noticed the issue.
It's an interesting concept for a thruster but where does it get the Electricity?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoplasmadynamic_thruster
"One big problem is that power requirements on the order of hundreds of kilowatts are required for optimum performance."

And the MHD powerplant creates electicity by heating a gas to a plasma state and pushing it though a magnet like an electric generator except the fast moving plasma takes the place of the rotating electric coil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHD_generator
"An MHD generator, like a conventional generator, relies on moving a conductor through a magnetic field to generate electric current. The MHD generator uses hot conductive plasma as the moving conductor. "

Basically you need a jet to push the fluid through the MHD generator to create electricity. The MPD jet needs electricity to push the fluid. For this to work you'd still need a nuclear powerplant to provide the energy in the first place so why not just skip a step and use nuclear propulsion?
 
OneTrikPony said:
I'm trying to figure out how People on King get into orbit and I notice that the Magnetohydrodynamic turbine and Magnetoplasmadynamic thruster are the primary means of propulsion for maneuver drives.

Looking into what these things actually are I've become convinced that this is complete BS.
Correct. Complete BS since they're very low thrust. Drives of this sort are suitable only for long duration burns with very low acceleration. Pitifully underpowered for orbit ascent from the tiniest moonlets.

Thus far, any propulsion system with high efficiency has low thrust. The high-efficiency, high-thrust system is the holy grail of space propulsion.
 
spirochete said:
Thus far, any propulsion system with high efficiency has low thrust. The high-efficiency, high-thrust system is the holy grail of space propulsion.

Yes. Hence Trav switching to reactionless drives.
 
F33D said:
spirochete said:
Thus far, any propulsion system with high efficiency has low thrust. The high-efficiency, high-thrust system is the holy grail of space propulsion.

Yes. Hence Trav switching to reactionless drives.

Well, being explicit about it.
Early CT was deliberately vague about the exact nature of the M-Drives, but by MT in 1987 enough hints had been dropped that it was fairly obvious that the Imperiums ran on reactionless drives, and MT codified that. 2300AD first hit (under the confusing Traveller 2300 name) in 1986, using technology that was sounding promising for the future (MHD, etc). By the time TNE (and GDW) had run its course, most of those technologies were proving to be less fruitful than the optimism of a decade earlier.
 
being new to the game it's difficult to stay aware of the history. I still say MHD powerplants were a mistake cause they pretty clearly need something pushing the working fluid through them.

Wish someone could have told me I was wrong and that they would realistically push a 100 ton ship at 4 G's

Thanks for all the replies. :)
 
That wikipedia article references lots of diverse uses of the Lorentz Force and Hall Effect, including moving sea water with magnets ala Red October and Ion drives, which are indeed high efficiency/low thrust. The MHD drives in 2300 are not 'BS' in that the concept is sound, the numbers are definitely heavily tweaked in order to increase fuel efficiency greatly.

MHD as a power source
As far as I understand it, MHD power plants in 2300 create a plasma by burning liquid hydrogen and oxygen, pushing the resulting plasma into the turbine where it creates electricity just like a regular generator, except that the plasma takes the place of the spinning coils in the regular generator. So you'd need to ignite the fuel, to start the process, just like you need a spark to start an internal combustion engine, thereafter the turbine will produce net power. The violence of igniting the hydrogen and oxygen is enough of a jet to create and move the plasma in the first place - this is what real rockets today use as reaction mass after all.

A lot of traditional power stations are considering using MHD turbines to produce extra electricity from the high temperature gasses they produce from coal, oil or other fuels. The RPG Albedo also used MHD turbines to generate electricity by passing the exhaust from their fusion rockets through an MHD turbine on the way out of the exhaust.

So MHD turbines are conceptually real power generation sources, which current technology is just about on the cusp of deploying usefully for power generation.

MHD Thrusters as rockets
In 2300 AD, the game posits simply sticking a hole in one end of an MHD Tubine to let the plasma escape as a rocket exhaust (I imagine they'd have a magnetic nozzle to focus the plasma into a high-pressure jet). You would also add the electrical power the MHD generates, or some portion of it, to heat the plasma to increase the energy of the rocket exhaust. In this case, you'd have essentially the same engine that modern rockets use – a jet of hydrogen burned in liquid oxygen, with lots of electrical power added to it).

There's no reason this wouldn't work either – Ignite liguid hydrogen in oxygen, push it through an MHD turbine where it generates a current as it passes through, use that electricity to heat the exhaust again just before it passes through nozzle as a rocket exhaust producing thrust.

You can see a discussion of this in the 2300 AD technical architecture series here [http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/2300ad/Locomotion.html] – this article concludes that 2300 MHD thrusters are in the ball-park of projected advanced rocket performance, they are just much more fuel efficient, a deliberate sin all drives in traveller seem to be guilty of, so that the players aren't squeezed into a capsule at the end of a flying fuel tank.
 
GypsyComet said:
Well, being explicit about it.
Early CT was deliberately vague about the exact nature of the M-Drives, but by MT in 1987 enough hints had been dropped that it was fairly obvious that the Imperiums ran on reactionless drives, and MT codified that.

CT 1st ed hinted at reaction drives. That's why I said "switched".
 
Yatima said:
MHD as a power source
As far as I understand it, MHD power plants in 2300 create a plasma by burning liquid hydrogen and oxygen, pushing the resulting plasma into the turbine where it creates electricity just like a regular generator,

Kinda an inefficient way to generate electricity for a space ship. Should just use fission plants instead. But, I guess that wouldn't sound as "techy"...
 
F33D said:
Kinda an inefficient way to generate electricity for a space ship. Should just use fission plants instead. But, I guess that wouldn't sound as "techy"...

Not really inefficient, when you see the whole picture. Take Fission, for example, how does that generate electricity? Well, nuclear fissile material gets hot, and this heat is used to turn water into steam, which drives a steam turbine, which turns an electrical motor to create current. looked at like this, a fission (or fusion) power plant is just a glorified steam engine, they are just using a fancier heat source than a coal boiler. In game, of course, all of this is glossed over and you just see Fission Plant in the components list.

If you must have a turbine anyway, to create power from Fission, why not use an MHD turbine, which has no moving parts and wraps the heat source and electrical generator into one machine.
 
Yatima said:
F33D said:
Kinda an inefficient way to generate electricity for a space ship. Should just use fission plants instead. But, I guess that wouldn't sound as "techy"...

Not really inefficient, when you see the whole picture. Take Fission, for example, how does that generate electricity?

That is how it is done on Earth. Even today's space craft use fission to directly generate power. With Beta voltaics being produced, it'll get even more efficient. Unfortunately the person who wrote the rules isn't keeping up with current tech.
 
F33D said:
That is how it is done on Earth. Even today's space craft use fission to directly generate power. With Beta voltaics being produced, it'll get even more efficient. Unfortunately the person who wrote the rules isn't keeping up with current tech.

Sure, radio isotopes can be used to create current through temperature differences or sterling heat engines. Beta volyaics are slated to power your phone. But Nasa's projected systems produce 500 watts - a frigate in 2300 requires 5 million watts for the stutterwarp drive alone. Quite the gap.

Fusion, fission, large plasma-dynamic turbines will outperform small pistons pumped off a heat difference even in 2300 AD. These systems are good for reusing waste heat or for long-endurance satellites but won't be powering stutterwarp drives.
 
Yatima said:
Beta volyaics are slated to power your phone. But Nasa's projected systems produce 500 watts - a frigate in 2300 requires 5 million watts for the stutterwarp drive alone. Quite the gap.


The % efficiencies are going up rapidly. Also, gamma will be used. There is already at least one patent for a A, B, G voltaic device. ;)
 
Tech assumptions for Mongoose 2300 were based on the original tech assumptions of Traveller:2300/2300AD, and the Naval Architects guide. Fusion and fission plants are fairly large, with a high minimum size, but produce power without an external fuel requirement. Fuel cells are small, but expensive with a maximum size. MHD turbines have a wide size range, produce significant power, but require a great deal of fuel. There is no "one size fits all" class of powerplant, like in Core Traveller.
 
Yatima said:
The RPG Albedo also used MHD turbines to generate electricity by passing the exhaust from their fusion rockets through an MHD turbine on the way out of the exhaust.

The "turbine" terminology is misleading. Real-world MHD generators aren't really "turbines" with rotating blades like a gas turbine. They're more like a dynamo with a gas armature.
 
spirochete said:
Yatima said:
The RPG Albedo also used MHD turbines to generate electricity by passing the exhaust from their fusion rockets through an MHD turbine on the way out of the exhaust.
The "turbine" terminology is misleading. Real-world MHD generators aren't really "turbines" with rotating blades like a gas turbine. They're more like a dynamo with a gas armature.

I understand this, a fusion exhaust would vaporise turbine blades. In albedo, the fusion exhaust passed along a cylinder that contained the MHD generator, all controlled by a magnetic field, and was focused by a magnetic nozzle.
 
F33D said:
GypsyComet said:
Well, being explicit about it.
Early CT was deliberately vague about the exact nature of the M-Drives, but by MT in 1987 enough hints had been dropped that it was fairly obvious that the Imperiums ran on reactionless drives, and MT codified that.

CT 1st ed hinted at reaction drives. That's why I said "switched".

Book 2, 1977 edition, page 5
"A power plant, to provide power for one trip (internal power, maneuver drive power, and other necessities) requires fuel in accordance with the formula: 10Pn. ... The formula indicates amount of fuel in tons, and all such fuel is consumed in the process of a normal trip. A fully fuelled (sic) power plant will enable a starship an effectively unlimited number of accelerations (at least 288) if necessary to use the maneuver drive the trip."

Sounds ambivalent to me. Hints of both reaction and reactionless.

We do get one explicit reference to reaction drives on page 22. That reference was not in the 1981 edition, and is rather scary if you do the math. CT77 ships should be leaving fusion rocket tails many light seconds long and capable of cutting another ship in half, OR, as would later prove to be the case, are using weird science to get around. The Space Shuttle used more fuel than the total volume of the Type S for about a half-hour just to get into orbit. The Type S uses a fifth of that and can bustle about at 2G constant for A MONTH.

CT was in its fourth edition when the switch to MT took place, and only a few old grumps like us are even aware that the 77 edition has significant differences compared to the 81 edition, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller.
 
GypsyComet said:
We do get one explicit reference to reaction drives on page 22. That reference was not in the 1981 edition, and is rather scary if you do the math. CT77 ships should be leaving fusion rocket tails many light seconds long and capable of cutting another ship in half, ...

"A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive." — The Kzinti Lesson, Larry Niven.


Simon Hibbs
 
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