2300AD - A suggestion

[Sigtrygg]

Str - important for hit capacity, carrying capacity, melee

Soc - represents social rank - the future culture that Traveller defaults to in its core tropes assumes those future cultures place an emphasis on social rank, you are not in the US or EU anymore (both of which have social rank, the USA just bases it on family money)

There have been cultures throughout human history were social rank was really important for interactions.

Traveller lacks interpersonal characteristics (which is why in my house game I have added presence as a characteristic) but, there are skills that cover interpersoanl interaction.

As to Soc not being useful "do you know who I am" works in the Third Imperium and any setting that uses original CT tropes.

T2300 doesn't do it at blatantly, but hierarchies are still there.

Social positions in hierarchies change their titles, the deference those of a lower rank must pay to those of higher rank is baked into the system. Doesn't matter if it the civilian, military, religious or corporate authority, if there is a hierarchy you have a social rank.

Don't like it? Don't play in a setting with a hierarchical culture - the Culture is beyond such things for example. Or have your characters join the Ine Givar or provolutionists... but I bet there is still a hierarchy.

 

[mavikfelna]

Str - important for hit capacity, carrying capacity, melee

Soc - represents social rank - the future culture that Traveller defaults to in its core tropes assumes those future cultures place an emphasis on social rank, you are not in the US or EU anymore (both of which have social rank, the USA just bases it on family money)

There have been cultures throughout human history were social rank was really important for interactions.

Traveller lacks interpersonal characteristics (which is why in my house game I have added presence as a characteristic) but, there are skills that cover interpersoanl interaction.

As to Soc not being useful "do you know who I am" works in the Third Imperium and any setting that uses original CT tropes.

T2300 doesn't do it at blatantly, but hierarchies are still there.

Social positions in hierarchies change their titles, the deference those of a lower rank must pay to those of higher rank is baked into the system. Doesn't matter if it the civilian, military, religious or corporate authority, if there is a hierarchy you have a social rank.

Don't like it? Don't play in a setting with a hierarchical culture - the Culture is beyond such things for example. Or have your characters join the Ine Givar or provolutionists... but I bet there is still a hierarchy.

Yep, but DEX skills for Melee is what you use to hit not STR. The bonus for damage from STR is mostly irrelevant. And there are all too many ways to ignore carry weight, a robot porter is cheap. Hit capacity is nice, but armor and high DEX both help adsorb those hits too

SOC is important if you're a face, but I have rarely ever used it in 45 years of playing. If you interact with Nobility alot, you need it, but it's a hindrance in most other situations.

Now, the Vargr CHR trait is hella useful if you're in the extents or working with mercs. I wouldn't mind that replacing SOC.

 

[Vormaerin]

No danger of that. Despite the various controversies about it, I'm a big SOC fan. I call for it all the time in my games, to the chagrin of those players who made it their dump stat.

I liked SOC back in CT when it's application as a modifier was situational. Being Lord Snoot was a bonus in some situations and a penalty in others. But now that it is supposed to be used regularly with social skills like it was Charisma/Presence, I find it quite annoying as written. The uncouth street rogue and the charming aristo are fine tropes, but they shouldn't be the only way the rules work.

 

[Vormaerin]

Traveller lacks interpersonal characteristics (which is why in my house game I have added presence as a characteristic) but, there are skills that cover interpersoanl interaction.

That's basically what I was suggesting, though there's not very much support for SOC mattering if you aren't 9+ in the rules as written.

Also, Mongoose's current rules put SOC in every place you'd put PRE. You think that only lords are good at gathering rumors at parties? Finding brokers? Calming upset people?

We aren't exactly lacking in examples of Lords who are *bad* leaders. Do we think that declaring Sticky a baron suddenly made him +2 at most social activities?

So I'd definitely include a stat intended to be for inpersonal skills and I'd worry about whether SOC is important and what it represents to setting specific material.

 

[Endie]

A few off-the-cuff ideas:

• Task Difficulty: It adds color, which is fun, but could we nix it and just make 8+ the target for everything with negative DMs to reflect added difficulty. Just shotgunning that out there without thinking of the implications.
• Slots instead of kg for gear. You can carry one Slot of gear per point of STR or something like that. I'd be surprised if 1% of Traveller players are adding up the weight of Travellers' gear and using the Encumbrance rules as is. Referees probably only resort to it if the Travellers seem to be violating the rule by trying to lug everything but the kitchen sink on an expedition.
• Gear packages for Traveller 'types' (e.g., explorer, colonist, mercenary, trader, etc.). This one gets a vacc suit and a body pistol. This one gets an ACR and flak jacket, etc. I'm not sure whether gear purchase is an impediment to new players or not, but handing out a 'basic pack' for various Traveller types might simplify things and get them playing faster.
• Simplify some skills, ditching their specialties. Gun Combat comes to mind.
• Ditch Initiative. Daggerheart has an innovative way of handling Initiative: It doesn't exist! Let the Travellers hash it out, but those who shoot, stab, punch or otherwise attempt to inflict damage absorb more attention from their foes.

What other ideas do you have? Keep in mind, the typical Traveller player just wants to make Star Trek, Firefly, or Star Wars happen, or whatever novel they're reading, video game they're playing, etc. Most don't want the crunch. The crunch has to be there to make the system internally consistent, but we have to be able to mask it for those folks who just want to get their space opera on, shoot some laser pistols, and fly through the asteroid belt.

I like the twin approaches of varying difficulty and varying bonuses. It’s instinctive for people to know “this task is very hard but my character is very capable”. In addition (pun intended) a lot of people find “is 2D6+2+1 at least 12?” significantly easier than “is 2D6+2+1-4 at least 8?” Subtraction is conceptually and procedurally trickier for a bunch of folks for various reasons.

Slots have not, so far, been an unqualified success. Barely a day goes by without one thread or another on these fair forums getting dragged into people announcing yet again that they don’t translate. If robots, people, vehicles and ships all used the same definition then sure, I guess?

Gear packages, sure.

Skill simplification - would probably need some rebalancing of chargen and training but sure.

Removing initiative: I hate this. I also happen to detest the Theatre Kid approach of Daggerheart (but then the company using it don’t even use their own system for their main series, so they share my scepticism), so better not mentioning them. But initiative is a mini game and a dimension of fun as part of gameplay. Simplification is fine but that feels to me like eight steps too far. It’s the only suggestion on your list that I find actively horrible.

I get what you say about crunch, although I don’t see people worked up about it at the table and the experience we’ve had in my groups with MgT2e is generally one of how much easier it is than 5e to play for the players. I do worry about importing systems from the game of the moment and getting rid of layers of gameplay because it’s a current fashion. With established games, you’re not going to radically change the audience, just risk losing the current one. You have to dance with the one what brung you, as the saying goes.

 

[Vormaerin]

I like the twin approaches of varying difficulty and varying bonuses. It’s instinctive for people to know “this task is very hard but my character is very capable”.

Slots have not, so far, been an unqualified success. Barely a day goes by without one thread or another on these fair forums getting dragged into people announcing yet again that they don’t translate. If robots, people, vehicles and ships all used the same definition then sure, I guess?

Gear packages, sure.

Skill simplification - would probably need some rebalancing of chargen and training but sure.

Removing initiative: I hate this. I also happen to detest the Theatre Kid approach of Daggerheart (but then the company using it don’t even use their own system for their main series, so they share my scepticism), so better not mentioning them. But initiative is a mini game and a dimension of fun as part of gameplay. Simplification is fine but that feels to me like eight steps too far. It’s the only suggestion on your list that I find actively horrible.

You can dislike Daggerheart. It's not for me either (the fantasy genre in general isn't), but they are absolutely not avoiding Daggerheart because they share your skepticism. It's not a generic one game for all things system. This season is a west marches style game with lots of guest stars dropping in and out. And that is absolutely not conducive to teaching a game. All the people they invite will know how to play D&D and be able to drop in and run immediately. They don't want to be limited to people who are already good at playing Daggerheart.

And I wouldn't be surprised if there were financial incentives as well. Almost everyone in the streaming fantasy genre sees their numbers and revenue drop off when they do something that isn't D&D. They employ a LOT of people and keeping that money flowing is what lets them do all the other stuff they do that isn't D&D.

 

[Endie]

You can dislike Daggerheart. It's not for me either (the fantasy genre in general isn't), but they are absolutely not avoiding Daggerheart because they share your skepticism. It's not a generic one game for all things system. This season is a west marches style game with lots of guest stars dropping in and out. And that is absolutely not conducive to teaching a game. All the people they invite will know how to play D&D and be able to drop in and run immediately. They don't want to be limited to people who are already good at playing Daggerheart.

And I wouldn't be surprised if there were financial incentives as well. Almost everyone in the streaming fantasy genre sees their numbers and revenue drop off when they do something that isn't D&D. They employ a LOT of people and keeping that money flowing is what lets them do all the other stuff they do that isn't D&D.

I saw a Professor Dungeoncraft video where he looked at the views on their Daggerheart content and the ad income at stake (huge!) and pointed out that their decision was all about rapidly declining interest in, and views for, the new system and the sheer financial impact of moving away from 5e. I have no dog in that fight so I can see entirely why a minor product like their game would not be allowed to put at risk the far-more-substantial income they get from their flagship show.

 

[paltrysum]

Removing initiative: I hate this. I also happen to detest the Theatre Kid approach of Daggerheart (but then the company using it don’t even use their own system for their main series, so they share my scepticism), so better not mentioning them.

lol "theatre kid approach". Great feedback.

But initiative is a mini game and a dimension of fun as part of gameplay. Simplification is fine but that feels to me like eight steps too far. It’s the only suggestion on your list that I find actively horrible.

We probably won't muck with it. Just exploring options. Initiative works fine in Traveller and probably does not need an adjustment.

I get what you say about crunch, although I don’t see people worked up about it at the table and the experience we’ve had in my groups with MgT2e is generally one of how much easier it is than 5e to play for the players.

I agree that it's not a problem at the table. It's before that when it might be a problem: when people are deciding on which sci-fi game to purchase. Some people get intimidated by the game when they look at complex rules. Personally, I think High Guard works just fine, and it's appropriately simplified, but I do read comments in various forums that give me the impression that it puts people off a bit.

I'm of the mind that a simple cleanup of the mechanics would be fine. We made some nice repairs in the 2022 edition, with Damage Multiples being my favorite fix. But I'd like to fix the mechanics in a way that makes those feel a little more organic than tacked on.

Thanks for taking the time, Endie. I appreciate it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

This is a 2300AD thread and yet it highlights one of the main reasons people in the wider rpg community dismiss Traveller when they are considering a sci fi rpg - the general rpg consensus is that Traveller is The Third Imperium role playing game, so if they want a sci fi game to run their own sci fi ideas they dismiss Traveller. Which is a crying shame when you consider Traveller was originally written so you could run games in any setting that you could come up with.

The next full new edition of the Traveller core rules should use all of its settings as examples, there should be guidance on using your own ideas rather than defaulting to the Third Imperium in the third paragraph.

"Traveller is a science fiction roleplaying game of the far future. A multitude of universes await players and you will find Traveller is capable of handling almost any kind of science fiction setting, from highly intricate cyberpunk worlds to campaigns spanning entire galaxies where mighty empires clash and suns explode.
If you have a favourite science fiction film or TV show, Traveller will be able to replicate it for you, bringing your best-loved futuristic moments to your tabletop"

This sounds great, bu then we get the immediate default to Charted Space and that is all we get for the rest of the book.

"CHARTED SPACE
While Traveller is intended to be used for any science fiction setting its players devise, the longest running commercially available universe (indeed, one of the oldest roleplaying game settings of all) is Charted Space."

Followed by 3 more paragraphs.

Then the Imperium is mentioned 66 times, Aslan 16 times, Vargr 18 times, Zhodani get mentioned 3 times. No mention of any other Traveller setting and very little guidance on making up your own or adapting the rules to your own setting.

 

[nostromo1a1]

If I may chime in on a few opinions for 2300. I like the game idea, a few flaws from gaming with fellow players and fans of Traveller.

First Stutterwarp, just another name for a jump drive and the mechanics for it is stupid. We chose the idea of just use it as a warp drive period.

Second, 2300 belongs part of the future of Twilight 2000, and leave Kafers and the other aliens out. The biology is like Saturday morning cartoons.

Third, The Twilight 1st edition game engine was the best in our opinions, D100 and combat was simple and fast. What came after was mechanically cumbersome, slow, or just stupid.

Regardless if a new edition comes out, we will hold hope it is realistic, and plausible, in the projection of technology from the stand point of being a historical continuation of the Twilight 2000 timeline, we stand on this point.

 

[SgtKilrain]

For my crew, we play 2300AD as something of a Napoleonic Era "The Expanse". We like the relatively more realistic aesthetic of the setting with the very approachable concepts of the different Nations of Earth spread to the stars. My concern with "The Expanse" RPG is that while the novels are excellent, and the TV show equally so, the setting is really locked around a 20 year period surrounding the discovery of the protomolecule before the setting effectively ends. That isn't a lot of time to develop colonized worlds, to continue in the political intrigue between the powers of the UN, MCR, and OPA. Also, for players, it always seems as if you are just a side quest to the main characters, the crew of the Rocinante.

We play 2300AD to have the opportunity to see these colonial worlds in different states of growth and to truly delve into the colonial power intrigue between the Nations of Earth. We have run it so far as something more akin to Sharpes Rifles and Horatio Hornblower, in space. The ideas of the French being the unipolar power of known space, is perfect for harvesting from history all kinds of adventure hooks. Additionally, there is no narrative race against the protomolecule clock that limits the time for the characters to enjoy the setting, and breath in all of the flavor it can provide. That to me is the strength of 2300AD in that there is real history to reference and provide a grounded, accessible approach to what in all actuality is space opera.

 

[GJD]

I don't post on here a lot, because forums make my eyeballs itch, but I will say a few things. I may ramble. Also, the opinions here are my own.

2300AD would not be being published if it weren't for Colin Dunn. His efforts on 2320AD and latterly 2300AD versions 1 and 2 at Mongoose have kept the game alive, in fact brought it back from the void. It is because of the work he did to revive 2300AD that I got to play in the Pleaides at all, and for that I will be eternally grateful. Holding the Project: Bayern box in my hands was the fulfilment of a 30 something year interest (some might say obsession) with that campaign.

There have been changes. The rules have moved to the core MgT rules from GDW, then updates of the versions to keep in line with changing core Traveller rules and updates to High Guard and so on. Bayern fell foul of this, being completed just as MgT2300AD V1 changed to V2 and I had to make all the changes and updates that entailed! Some of the changes within those rules were at the request of Mongoose. 2300AD has always been quite a dense game to work with - cube roots, formulas and volumetric design systems are not a quick and easy solution.

Whilst simulationist games appeal to some players, the modern marketplace is not what it was in the 1980's and mainstream gamers today demand a more accessible system. I know, because as well as writing for Mongoose, my day job is project manager for Modiphius, publishers of the 2d20 games system and various licensed properties (Fallout, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls and this little indie show about space travel, Star Hike? Star Trails? Something like that). Mainstream gamers today want simplicity, storytelling and narrative input. That's what our 2d20 games at Modiphius do and that's not what Traveller does (for the most part). I ran a game recently for a younger audience and they quickly asked where their narrative input to the story was? Where are the story points (Momentum, as we call it in 2D20) that let them add or change things in a scene?

There is an argument that you can let other games do that and keep your (our) niche aligned with its core values - realism, detail etc, which is fine, but that leads to a diminishing market share. When you cater to a small, highly discerning (polite way of saying opinionated), highly selective audience, they start self selecting themselves out. As soon as you "version" of the thing isn't catered for , you look elsewhere. I'ver certainly done it (I loved Cyberpunk 2020, but Cyberpunk Red leaves me cold and lets not even talk about Cyberpunk V3).

Colin has also made changes to the background and the storyline. Some of it I like, some of it I'm not so keen on. He and I have had spirited discussions about some things throughout the history of the 2300AD revival - I was VERY against the Kaefer Genocide that was presented in the playtest files for 2320AD, for instance, and I'm very grateful that we could have the discussions that we did that altered the eventual outcome.

But, the bottom line is, if we want more 2300AD (and I for one, do) its going to be Colin's vision with Mongoose. Colin is putting in the work and he has kept the line moving. He's one guy and he has a day job and life to lead, like everybody else. I help where I can, but the burden of responsibility and credit goes to Colin (and, of course, all the fine folks at Mongoose). It may not be perfect. It may not have everything that you want to see. You may disagree with some of the choices Colin has made, but sniping and calling for his replacement will NOT move the line forward.