0 HP and Beyond

[Supplement Four]

Why not use something similar to the WHFRP critical wound system?
In Warhammer, evrything's fine until you reach negative Hps. From there every hit is a critical blow, each getting meaner and deadlier as you go down in negative...

I'm heading that way...

But, I think I'm going to use the infamous Rolemaster Critical Hit Charts. Those have a lot of "personality". And, there are 95 different outcomes for each weapon type (slash, crush, pierce, etc).





Here's what I'm thinking...

(Edited Rolemaster Crit Charts for use with d20 Conan 2E)

Jace is fighting a big, bad, red-haired Vanir bastard. Jace has 52 HP, but then the Vanir scores Massive Damage on Jace. The Vanir rolls 29 points of damage.

Jace must make a Fort Save against the Massive Damage. He fails.

The rule is: I will check the Critical Chart whenever a character is going to 0 HP or below.

Since Jace failed the Fort Save, I would normally roll 1d10 to see Jace's new HP in the negatives. But, before this step, I will roll on the Critical Hit Chart to get a better understanding of what's happening.

I roll and see this description: Blow to the side. +2 damage. Victim's defense at -1 through next round.

So, Jace got off pretty lucky. The Critical Chart has some pretty light entries as well as some pretty nasty entries.

What happens is that the Vanir struck a blow to Jace's side. Jace receives +2 damage (for a total of 31 points). And, Jace will favor that side for about six seconds (through next round) with a -1 penalty to his defense that is in effect through his next initiative.

Not too bad, eh?

Since the Critical Hit chart did not describe a wound that warrants Jace being put into the negative hit points, I will ignore Jace's failure of the Fort Save against the Massive Damage.

Instead, Jace keeps fighting. His 52 HP is reduced to 21 HP, and he's -1 Defense for one round. After that, it's back to business as usual.







OK, let's look at a differnt roll on the Critical Hit Chart.

Jace ends up slaying his Vanir foe. But, Jace is in a mass battle. Another red-haired bastard takes the slain one's place.

Jace is fine. He's got 21 HP now and no longer affected by the -1 Defense penalty.

Jace and the Vanir go at it, whittling each other's hit points down. A few rounds later, Jace has 9 HP, and then the Vanir hits him for a total of 12 damage.

This will stick Jace at -3 HP, but before that happens, I roll on the Critical Hit Chart.

Minor forearm wound. +3 Damage. Victim takes -2 HP per round from bleeding until healed. Victim at -1 Defense until healed.

Jace is weak and goes down. He's bleeding from a forearm gash, taking -3 HP per round instead of the usual -1 HP. So, Jace starts at -6 HP. Next round, he'll be at -9 HP unless somebody helps him (stabilizes him per the rules).

Jace's comrades have taken the camp. A quick Heal check is made, and Jace is stabilized. From here, we follow the normal rules.







One more look into using the Critical Hit Chart.

A month later, Jace and his Cimmerian friends are camped out. Late at night, they are attacked by a Vanir raiding party--those that have come looking for vengenance after what the Cimmerians did to their friends.

Jace is back up to full HP, but on the Surprise round, he takes 22 points of damage, which is enough to qualify for Massive Damage.

Jace fails the Fort Save.

I roll on the Critical Hit Chart.

Victim is disembowled. 25% chance attacker's weapon stuck on bone inside the victim.

Clearly, the Critical Hit Chart is not going to "save" Jace from going into negative hit points this time (as it did in the first example above). We'll just play the rules straight on this one--with the added flavor that the Vanir has a 25% chance of getting his weapon stuck inside of Jace.

I roll 1d10, getting a 3. So, Jace is skewered through the gut with the Vanir's sword. Jace is at -3 HP and dying quickly unless he gets help.





That's how I envision using the Critical Hit Charts from Rolemaster with this Conan game.

 

[Sutek]

But 0HP as an abstract could have been achieved from a conk on the head or from being bitten by a Saber-tooth...or taking a Critical Hit from a PA, two-handed bardiche. Critical Hit charts blow the abstraction because it puts specific labels to wounds that don't technically exist. In and of themselves, however, they arent' that bad an idea.

But, more to the point, they don't really solve your dislike of the 0HP threashold being the break point between life and death, or knowing how to explain negative HP in a meta sense. Besides, what if I'm at -1HP and rolla CritHit chart result of "Amputated Arm", and later have -9HP and roll "Bad Scar". You get the same exact confusing "explanation."

I'll say it again. I think you're over thinking this "problem".

 

[Supplement Four]

But, more to the point, they don't really solve your dislike of the 0HP threashold being the break point between life and death, or knowing how to explain negative HP in a meta sense.

I'm really not following you.

I think this works great.

Simply: 0 HP and below means the character was some how disabled. At the negative HPs, he's dying for some reason.

The Critical Chart gives the reason the person is dying.

With the added bonus...if the Critical Chart doesn't describe a wound that would kill, the character is "saved" with a lesser wound (he's not dying). So...there's only a "plus" for PCs in that regard.

Besides, what if I'm at -1HP and rolla CritHit chart result of "Amputated Arm", and later have -9HP and roll "Bad Scar". You get the same exact confusing "explanation."

The GM will have to make a call, just like he does on 2 million other things that pops up in a game.

If your character had his left arm amputated sometime earlier in the campaign, and in the current fight, he's knocked down to -9 HP. I roll on the Crit Chart, and the chart says, "Bad Scar to left arm". Then, I, as GM will just get creative with it.

I mean, I'm already eyeballing stuff from the Rolemaster system and converting it to the Conan d20 system on the spot (Maybe one day I'll spend time on using the RM Crit Tables as a basis for some typed up Conan Crit Charts). It's nothing to read "Bad Scar to left arm" and decide it should be on the right arm. Or..to the stub of the left arm that's left. Or, to another part of the body.

On top of this, your character is reduced to -9 HP, yes? The "bad scar" doesn't warrant a "dying blow", so I would pop you back up to 1 HP.

You're still very vulnerable with only 1 HP, but you're not helpless like you would be at -9 HP.

In this sense, the Critical Hit Chart will actually work to keep characters ALIVE!.

I'll say it again. I think you're over thinking this "problem".

I don't really think it's a "problem". I'm just putting more definition to what "dying" means.

The added benefit to this is that sometimes a character knocked to -7 HP or so will actually be raised to 1 HP because the Crit Chart doesn't warrant a dying wound.

So...the Critical Hit Chart will do two things for the game.

(1) It will show what kind of wound the character takes when he takes a mortal wound (a wound that you would be dying from).

(2) And, sometimes, the Chart will "save" a character from a wound that would otherwise make him die, because the wound description doesn't add-up. This is a bonus for PCs.

 

[Supplement Four]

To follow up my point with an example or two...

(1) It will show what kind of wound the character takes when he takes a mortal wound (a wound that you would be dying from).

The Vanir warrior slaps his mace at Jance, knocking him to -3 HP.

I roll on the Critical Hit Chart for Blunt Weapons, getting this result: Crush victim's skull with +30 damage. +2 to next attack if victim still standing.

So...we know that the Vanir just knocked Jance up side the head with his mace. Jance isn't standing any longer, so the GM will ignore the +30 damage (that can be used for a Massive Damage strike). And, the +2 circumstance bonus can be ignored as well because Jance still isn't standing.

We'll give Jance one round to have something happen, so Jance is reduced to -10 HP (not -3 HP).

What happened was this: The Vanir swung his mace. It connected with Jance's head and probably killed him (unless Left for Dead is used).

(2) And, sometimes, the Chart will "save" a character from a wound that would otherwise make him die, because the wound description doesn't add-up. This is a bonus for PCs.

Brace, Jance's brother, is fighting side-by-side his kin, when Brace takes a hit, too. Brace is knocked to -8 HP. He should be dying.

The Critical Hit Chart reads: Glancing blow. +6 damage if Massive Damage. Victim loses next attack.

So, Brace is raised to 1 HP, and he loses his next attack. But, he can still defend himself, and he's still up and moving around...which is a hell of a lot better than being at -8 HP.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm going to work on creating my own "dying wound" charts, using the Rolemaster charts as a starting point.

I'm not calling them "Critical Hit Charts" to avoid confusion with Critical Hits in d20. These charts aren't used when someone rolls a critical.

They're used only in these two instances:

1 - A roll is made on the dying wound chart whenever a character is reduced to 0 HP or less.

2- Or, a roll is made on the dying wound chart whenever a character is the victim of Massive Damage and fails the Fortitude Save.




I will design three charts: one for slashing weapons; one for bashing weapons; and one for piercing weapons.

I'm going to base the Slashing and Bashing Charts on this hit location chart--a chart that I've optimized for face-to-face melee fights. It provides a...

10% chance of a Head or Neck hit

40% chance of an arm hit, since fighters use their upper limbs to protect themselves.

20% chance of a leg hit, since fighters have to stoop and expose themselves when attacking below the waist.

30% chance of a torso hit, since that is usually a melee fighter's primary target.

I will adjust these numbers for the piercing chart, skewing the torso to a higher percentage, since most piercing weapons (arrows and spear thrusts) are aimed at the torso.

 

[Strom]

I've used the Critical Hit & Fumble tables from DnDAdventure.com and they sound like exactly what you are looking for Sup 4:

http://www.dndadventure.com/dnda_player_resources.html

They are located under miscellaneous. Might save you some work.

 

[rabindranath72]

It is a problem of how d20 (and d20 Conan) have tried to "reinterpret" an abstract concept, not a problem with the original HP and AC mechanics in themselves.

I don't see how d20 Conan has reinterpreted.

The max hit points you get at first level in 2E (I don't think AE does max hp at 1st level) is, basically, your "life points". Everything else is like Gygax said above. At negative hp, you're dying.

I read them the exact same, not different.

Armor piercing, damage reduction, and the various conditions on hit points (fatigued, exhausted etc.) are all rules which do not add much to the basic HP and AC systems. They try to make "realistic" and abstract system. The "realism" should come from the DM interpretation of the rules, not further rules. That's where rules bloat hinders the game, IMO.
But, if you like to make things more complex, more power to you.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've used the Critical Hit & Fumble tables from DnDAdventure.com and they sound like exactly what you are looking for Sup 4:

http://www.dndadventure.com/dnda_player_resources.html

They are located under miscellaneous. Might save you some work.

Hey! Thanks for the link!

I have seen those before. I think I even have a copy somewhere.

I think I might keep working on the Conan-specific tables, though, since there are some rule changes between Conan and standard d20.

 

[Supplement Four]

I will design three charts: one for slashing weapons; one for bashing weapons; and one for piercing weapons.

I'm going to base the Slashing and Bashing Charts on this hit location chart--a chart that I've optimized for face-to-face melee fights. It provides a...

10% chance of a Head or Neck hit

40% chance of an arm hit, since fighters use their upper limbs to protect themselves.

20% chance of a leg hit, since fighters have to stoop and expose themselves when attacking below the waist.

30% chance of a torso hit, since that is usually a melee fighter's primary target.

I will adjust these numbers for the piercing chart, skewing the torso to a higher percentage, since most piercing weapons (arrows and spear thrusts) are aimed at the torso.

So, the first chart (for Slashing and Bashing weapons) will look like this. Note that an odd number typically means the left side of the body where as an even number typically means the right side of the body.

And, the higher the number, the higher the hit location on the body.

I did this to help GMs (and myself) skew results when needed.

Also, the hit locations refer to the face side of the body, since that's where combatants are normally hit. It should be easy to adjust for the backside of the body when needed (say, for stealth attacks).

The final chart will have 100 outcomes. What I'm listing here is the base hit location chart that I will build from (good as a hit location chart in and of itself).

01		L. Shin/Foot
02		R. Shin/Foot
03		L. Thigh
04		R. Thigh
05		Waist/Hip/Groin
06		R. Abdomen
07		L. Abdomen
08		L. Chest
09		R. Chest
10		L. Hand
11		R. Hand
12		L. Forearm
13		R. Forearm
14		L. Upper Arm/Elbow
15		R. Upper Arm/Elbow
16		Center Torso
17		L. Shoulder
18		R. Shoulder
19		Neck/Throat
20		Head

 

[Sutek]

Nope. Critical hits in D20 are from rolling a 20 and then confirming a threat. I understand what you are doing, or trying to facilitate, but you approaching it from the wrong end. If you recall the Rolemaster system achieves a critial result from an exceptionally good blow. It was a perscentage roll that was ver, very high, and then you took the amount by which you succeeded and added the result from a crital damge die roll (I think multiple d6) Then, based on the weapon type (edged, blunt, energy, etc.) you consulted the appropriate chart with critial damage results.

In the d20 system, a critial blow is represented by threat activation (you know this, but I'm restating it to make my point clear). Having one's HP reduced isn't wounds and so hit locations like that make no sense. When a character is reduced to negative HP he is "dying" meaning that all previous HP were used up avoiding harm until he simply could not avoid it any longer. It's the To Hit roll and subsequent damage that takes him from positive HP into negative HP that effectively constitutes that stab to the gut, blow to the cranium or whatever and drops him.

Now what you want to do is explain that injury, the negative HP state, by bringing in a set of 100 hit locations that will indicate where this life threatening damage actually is, when the way the system works...it's irrelavant. In the d20 system, once a characte reaches -1HP or less, he is simply classified as "dying" and loses 1HP every round until he is dead. It doesn't matter what the injury is, so if you come up with 100 places that might be injured, then you will need to come up with at least 100 explanations of what each means, how it interacts with other values, stats and aspects of the character and what further results occur, such as shock, bleeding, disability, and so on. You're opening up a can of worms.

Think of it another way. Just like HP are an abstract representation of luck+skill+training+some-kind-of-magic, the single roll of 1d20 to determine a hit is also an abstract representation of many swings of a weapon in order to determine the effectiveness of combat related actions. The roll is versus DV, and determines if the series of weapon swings were all decent enough to perplex and wary you opponent enough, whereas the subsequent damage roll is the actual amount by which that opponent was perplexed and waried. Did you swing well enough tot be effective in combat (the d20 rolls) and by how much did effective combat actions effect opponents (damage rolls).

If anything, the conditions you want to enforce would work better if you put it into the d20 roll stage. For example, if I were to stick such a rule in, I'd make injuries a factor of (a) a number of injury points based on the attacker rolling To Hit and getting DV+X where X=multiples of the opponent's DEX mod, and (b) either if the attacks subsequent damge brought the opponent to 0HP (disabled) or negative HP (dying), or if damge were delivered by a Crit or not. It's a lot to consider, but if the multiples of DEX mod are the real realational factor, then it doesn't matter how the damage works out.

So...

Say my oppnent has a DEX mod of +3 and a DV of 22. Here's how my idea above would pan out. If I roll 22-24, I hit and deal normal damge. If I roll a 25-27, I've rolled high enough to hit normally, so normal damage, but also that range is at least +3 (his DEX mod) above his DV, so that would accumulate 1 Injury Point against him. Say I Crit, and the result of my natural 20 is finally a whopping 36. That's hitting his DV22, but also exceeds it by over 4 times his DEX mod, so he'd accumulate 4 Injury Points from that blow.

Now, what those IP result in, I don't know. I suppose the best way to use them would be simply as HP depletion, akin to Bleeding (-1HP each round) except that the target loses a number of HP equal to his total IP each round. That's pretty brutal, but definitely dangerous and grim. Perhaps it doesn't matter until he has to make a Left For Dead save, and then total IP act as a penalty to the save due to excessive injuries making it more difficult to stay this sid eof living. Perhaps injury points accumulated relate directly to an Injury Chart, so 1IP from an edged attack means a nasty but small scar above the eye, whereas more accumulated IP might be anything from permanent nerve damage to a hand reducing grip strength, a gouged eye, an amputated hand, etc. The higher the IP total for a combat the worse the injuries sustained.

The good news is that your scale won't be base don damge, which can get quite high, but is rather based on that factor ofmutiples of a target's DEX mod. Probably 10 injury results would be adequate to accomodate this system.

I still say, however, that its totally unnecessary in the d20 system and additional complexity that will only be a lot of work for you with little return.

 

[Supplement Four]

Nope. Critical hits in D20 are from rolling a 20 and then confirming a threat.

The chart is not used on Critical Hits. It's only used when a PC is reduced to 0 HP or -1 HP to -9 HP. In other words, the chart is only used when a PC is dying.

I understand what you are doing, or trying to facilitate, but you approaching it from the wrong end.

Actually, I'm not sure if you know what I'm doing. Because you will see I'm not attempting to replicate Rolemaster in d20 Conan. I was only attempting to use the neat Rolemaster Crit charts to provide color for when a PC is dying.

If you recall the Rolemaster system achieves a critial result from an exceptionally good blow. It was a perscentage roll that was ver, very high, and then you took the amount by which you succeeded and added the result from a crital damge die roll (I think multiple d6) Then, based on the weapon type (edged, blunt, energy, etc.) you consulted the appropriate chart with critial damage results.

Doesn't matter. I'm working a Conan system, not a Rolemaster system.

Having one's HP reduced isn't wounds and so hit locations like that make no sense.

Having one's HP reduced to a point where the character has at least 1 HP isn't wounds. That's true. And, I'm not addressing or chaning that aspect of the HP system.

When a Conan character is reduced to negative HPs, though, he is dying.

If a character is dying, then he must have taken a wound to make him die. Right?

The chart shows where that blow that sent him to oblivion landed on his body. That's all it does.

For example....


Drake, the Aquilionan Soldier, has 32 HPs. He's in a fight and takes 12 points of damage one round. A few rounds later, he takes 15 points of damage, leaving him with 5 HP.

Finally, Drake gets hit again and takes 7 HPs, reducing him to -2 HP.

By the rules,, Drake is immobile, unconscious, and dying.

You don't use the chart for any of the previous hits. You only use it for the last hit...the one that put Drake at -2 HP.

A roll on the chart says that Drake took a slice to his left forearm. Drake has a shield, so the GM describes how the crafty opponent tipped his blade inside Drake's guard and sliced his wrist.

It's a deep cut. Drake goes down.

THAT'S ALL THE CHART IS USED FOR!! NOT FOR ALL BLOWS!! JUST BLOWS THAT END WITH THE CHARACTER DYING!!

It's the To Hit roll and subsequent damage that takes him from positive HP into negative HP that effectively constitutes that stab to the gut, blow to the cranium or whatever and drops him.

Exactly.

I seriously don't think you're reading my posts...as I've said this over and over.

Now what you want to do is explain that injury, the negative HP state, by bringing in a set of 100 hit locations that will indicate where this life threatening damage actually is, when the way the system works...it's irrelavant.

The GM can make it up on the spot, using just the hit location chart (or no hit location chart). Or, he can be aided by the 100 damage outcomes (not 100 hit locations--there are only 20 locations).

If you don't think it's needed, then don't use it.

You're opening up a can of worms.

How do you figure?

If anything, the conditions you want to enforce would work better if you put it into the d20 roll stage.

I'm not sure if I'll put in all the work required to do the 100 wound outcomes. I think the two charts I made plus my imaginatiion will work fine. I'll make up stuff as I go along.

I still say, however, that its totally unnecessary in the d20 system and additional complexity that will only be a lot of work for you with little return.

The work on the two charts is done. I put them up in a new thread.

As I said above, I'm not sure if I'll push on with the 100 outcomes as it is a lot of work. I think the chart and my imagination will keep varied and circumstance specific wounds entertaining us as we play this game.

 

[Sutek]

If it works for you as an aide, then I guess that's your thing, man. I'm just saying that HP in an abstract scale from -10 up to infinity, essentially, and that giving more meaningful "weight" to the difference between -4 and -5 as compared to the different between 12 and 11 is a mistake. Negative HP are no more indicative of wounds/injuries than positive HP.

But fun is the thing, and you think this will be more fun, then that's all that matters.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm just saying that HP in an abstract scale from -10 up to infinity, essentially, and that giving more meaningful "weight" to the difference between -4 and -5 as compared to the different between 12 and 11 is a mistake.

Why?

Negative HP are no more indicative of wounds/injuries than positive HP.

Actually, they are. By the rule book's definition.

The Conan rules state the abstract value of hit points.

Then, the Conan rules state that 0 HP represents a state of being incapacitated.

Then, the Conan rules state that -1 HP to -9 HP represent the character dying.

Thems the official rules, bro. And, distinctions are made for different levels of HP.

But fun is the thing, and you think this will be more fun, then that's all that matters.

I do think it will add to my game. Otherwise, why would I use it?



You've noted a few times that I'm running at this thing backwards. I think you're looking at the HP represenation backwards.

You say that there shouldn't be a difference between -4 and -5 hit points if there isn't a difference between having 11 or 12 hit points.

What I say is look at this this way....

If you are hit and reduced to -4 HP, then, in essence, something happened to you--you were wounded--such that you will die in 30 seconds unless you are Healed, Stabilized, or Fate steps in.

All the chart does is help the GM decide what it was that put you in that predicament.

Try looking at it that way.

 

[Sutek]

Why? Because it's still just -1HP, either way.

0HP and -1HP are break points for changes in state, indicating an application of the Disabled and Dying rules. But, strictly speaking, there's no differnce between losing -1HP when you're negative compared to when you're positive. It's still -1 abstraction of life power, or whatever, and not actual wounds/injuries. Yes, distinctions are made for differnt levels of HP...but all HP are an abstraction...bro...not just the happy positive ones. (lol) I mean, dropping from -4HP to -5HP doesn't make me "more dying".

What put you in a -5HP predicament is a smack on the noggin by some mook's Bardiche.

Taking that angle a step further, what if he Crits me and I drop from a perfectly good 18HP to -5HP. By your system, the same wound canbe sustained from that, or a bloe that drops me from 3HP to -1HP...or from 68HP to -10HP due to Massive Damage. There's a disconnect in trying to apply a concrete definition of injury to a system that is abstract straight down the line.

I suggested a system that calculated injury based on the To Hit roll rather than the resultant damage, but I think even that is too much trouble.

I think you're just selling the system short before playing it "as written."

 

[Supplement Four]

I think you're just selling the system short before playing it "as written."

But, for all practical purposes, I will be playing the system very close to "as written".

The three changes I'm making are very much "in line" with the official rules.

Conan 321 is right in the middle of the two normal suggested attribute creation systems. Conan 321 gives players a little more control over where their stats go than the first official Conan system but not as much as with the second official Conan system.

Official Conan system one is: Roll 4d6, drop lowest, for each stat.

Official Conan system two is: Roll 4d6, drop lowest, then arrange to taste for each stat.

It's not a far departure from the official rules at all. Conan 321 is right in the middle of those two choices.



Dying Wounds, (The Damage Location Charts), doesn't change a single official rule. All it does is describe what part of the body was hit when the PC was knocked to 0 HP or worse. The official Healing rules are still used.

And, it's up to the GM if he wants to altar the Healing time or add acillary effects to damage.



Active Defense changes nothing about the game, either, in the long run. Defense number will average the same. In the short run, though, the variability in defense will keep combat extremely exciting.


You see, I have suggested no fundamental change to the rules--just rule enhancements that are very much in the nature of the official game (and the universe).

 

[Sutek]

:roll: