Imperial Army

[ottarrus]

Um, yes.

Using a historical military organization to limit what another person does with their fictional, futuristic one is gatekeeping of the worst sort.

And yet using historical example to extrapolate a possible future is the bread and butter of futurists everywhere.
When I'm citing a historical example I try very hard not to say 'no you can't', but rather 'that was tried before by [x] in [y] era with [z] results'. When I play the veteran card, I'm careful to cite my experiences as my own opinion and use terms like 'most likely' or 'it's possible'.
And one thing we all must remember, even if High Guard is basically 'Aubrey Harrington Hornblower in Space', is that NOTHING is forever in a military system. I'm a Civil War reenactor and a military historian. In the Civil War era, it was impossible for professional officers to think that the US Army would depart from Indigo Blue as its uniform color, but 40 years later the first khaki uniforms were being issued en masse. The only two things in any military that will always stay the same is that officers are officers and there is a certain class of old geezers who are NOT officers that the wise private does not eff with.

 

[ottarrus]

We could assume that the Marines are basically island hoppers; you identify a key target you want under your control, and they go and secure it.

Normandy wasn't actually a secret from the Germans, and you needed mass to take those objectives, though they did get fooled as to the primary ones.

Iwo Jima probably is about as close as you get to a large undertaking, compact, densely defended.

Using the American and British militaries as examples, the difference between the Army and Marines is primarily one of doctrine.
- The Army doctrine is one of conquest. They take and hold ground and grind the enemy into dust, however long that takes. The Army is long on vehicles, artillery, engineers, and logistical support.
- The Marine doctrine is one of extermination. They are Personal Violence Inc., the Pros from Mora. They drop in, kill everything that moves and many things that don't, and then turn the LZ over to the Army. The Marines are long on teeth and short on tail.
Your historical 'island hopper' example is accurate to an extent, but where the Marines have had the most difficult time, they've been asked to do an Army job with Marine methods.

 

[CordwainerFish]

. The only two things in any military that will always stay the same is

eat whenever you can, sleep whenever you can, and never, ever mouth off to a sergeant?

 

[Jame Rowe]

Using the American and British militaries as examples, the difference between the Army and Marines is primarily one of doctrine.
- The Army doctrine is one of conquest. They take and hold ground and grind the enemy into dust, however long that takes. The Army is long on vehicles, artillery, engineers, and logistical support.
- The Marine doctrine is one of extermination. They are Personal Violence Inc., the Pros from Mora. They drop in, kill everything that moves and many things that don't, and then turn the LZ over to the Army. The Marines are long on teeth and short on tail.
Your historical 'island hopper' example is accurate to an extent, but where the Marines have had the most difficult time, they've been asked to do an Army job with Marine methods.

That's why I see any "Marines" unit in an interstellar military being the initial beachhead or rapid reaction force. Go in and squash everything, then give the remainder to the Army.

Though I suspect that in the future, we might not need to have separate services for this; everything might well be Army, or even Armed Forces, for it.

 

[ottarrus]

Well, the Canadians tried that 'unified forces' thing and it didn't turn out well. It led to a lower intake rate and lower morale overall. It makes an interesting read if you'd care to.
About 10 [or so] years ago the US Chief of Naval Operations [the senior Navy professional officer] tried to do away with rating titles for enlisted ranks. For example, a Gunner's Mate 2nd Class would become a generic Petty Officer 2nd Class. The troops lost their minds over it. The Department of the Navy got deluged with mail [etc] including threats that if policy were not reversed that a significant percentage of their NCOs would turn in their papers and leave/retire. And by 'significant' I mean something like 28 to 36 percent of the NCO strength... And NO military can afford to watch that much experience and leadership walk out the door in huff.
The takeaway is that identity is important for troops. Nobody is happy being a 'military contractor grade 5'. They would much rather be a sergeant.

 

[Vormaerin]

IMC, the Imperial Marines are all protected forces commandos. Some specialize in storming ships/space stations/etc, some specialize in 'aerospace assaults' to take high priority targets by surprise assault using assault shuttles, and a small number are "drop troops", mainly for recon or other specialized missions.

They don't have integral artillery or armored fighting vehicles. That's what the Heavy Weapons troopers with the Battle Dress and support weapons are for. The Navy provides their supply train.

The Marines are not trained or equipped for sustained operations. If you are expecting to be fighting more than a couple days, that's an Army operation. Or, at least, the Army is on the way to take over.

Does that comply with the design in "official" materials? Nope. But it is what works for me.

 

[Vormaerin]

The Imperial Army, on the other hand, is a full service planetary military. Like the Imperial Navy, they have "frontline" units and "colonial" units. They have an extensive 'back office' to manage cadre operations for those colonial units.

 

[Micky]

it is worth noting the that Third Imperium sourcebook did give a fair bit of text over to just what the Imperial Army was.

from page 26

Imperial Army units are configured at the subsector level. Individual worlds provide regiments that are organized into divisions during deployments and, if necessary, subsector divisions can be further organized into corps and whole armies if a larger deployment is necessary. Subsector-level Imperial Army units have been mobilized many times, usually to put down revolts or fight small wars. Sector-wide corps have only been organized into an army on one occasion: the Solomani Rim War.

a bit further down is an interesting point.. and difference with the Imperial Marines...

While some worlds have armies that are large enough to handle an interstellar deployment on their own, this practice is frowned upon. Allowing the army of a single world to occupy another sends the wrong message, even when putting down a revolt.

while the Navy and Marines are seen as IMPERIAL institutions.. the Army is seen more as local (planetary) institution... the National Guard like lol.

and page 27 deals with one of the biggest issues with a more localized Imperial Army then the more centralized, Sub-Sector/Sector organized as opposed to the individual worlds of a subsector

Clashing cultures are not the only factors to contend with when assembling a subsector army out of contributed formations. The Imperium has a broad range of population and Tech Levels. There are high tech worlds with large populations, low-tech worlds with medium populations, mid-tech worlds with middling populations and every other combination in between. The Tech Level differences between armies can be significant. In the Core sector alone, there are massive disparities. For example, the high-population world of Shiirand has an army of 34 million soldiers, all of whom use TL7 equipment. Meanwhile, three parsecs away, the army of Ushra has 105 million soldiers armed to a much higher TL12 standard.

With that in mind one can see why the Imperial Army has really only been raised to same level and responsibilities of the Navy and Marines serving as the sword and shield of the Imperium. Perhaps what the Army is.. is its armor of the Imperium. Protecting the vitals but not a offensive asset except in the very rarest of times, or the times of the greatest of needs of the Imperium.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It comes down to the question can you enlist in the Imperial Army?

It is my reading of CT canon that you can, and that the Imperial Army is not just borrowed battalions as third party authors suggested later,

The Imperial Army is equal in status to the Imperial Navy, this is canon. The Imperial Star marines are thus a minor service.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Imperial Army is equal in status to the Imperial Navy, this is canon.

It's just competing versions of canon.

CT, MT, T4 describes one version, GT and apparently MgT describes another. Take your pick...

The Imperial Star marines are thus a minor service.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It says nothing about the Marines.

T4, that otherwise mostly agrees with CT, says the Marines belong to the Navy:

T4 Milieu 0, p47:
The Bureaucracy: In Year 0, the Imperial bureaucracy can be grouped into five primary governmental bodies, each with one or more Ministries:

• The Military (Navy and Army; Marines were under the jurisdiction of the Navy) which protects the space lanes, as well as helping to protect lesser developed member worlds incapable of defending themselves.
• The Office of Standards (including the office of Calendar Compliance, which see below) which regulates trade within the Imperium, as well as monitoring adherence to Imperial regulations governing interstellar trade, enforcement of taxation, etc. The OCC also controls the law enforcement arm of the lmperium–the Imperial Office (soon to be Ministry) of Justice.
• The Scout and Exploratory Services (Sylean Federation Scout Service, later to be renamed the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service).
• The Ministry of Information, which is the public relations branch of the Imperial government.
• The Diplomatic Corps, which is the Imperial foreign service.

While there are other governmental bodies subordinate to Cleon, these five are by all means the most important.

 

[Sigtrygg]

They are not listed as a major service - there is your evidence. The old "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is an unsafe debating point.

 

[Condottiere]

I would guess it would depend if the Marine commandant is a Joint Chief.

 

[WHULorigan]

The Imperium has a broad range of population and Tech Levels. . . . The Tech Level differences between armies can be significant. In the Core sector alone, there are massive disparities. For example, the high-population world of Shiirand has an army of 34 million soldiers, all of whom use TL7 equipment. Meanwhile, three parsecs away, the army of Ushra has 105 million soldiers armed to a much higher TL12 standard.

With that in mind one can see why the Imperial Army has really only been raised to same level and responsibilities of the Navy and Marines serving as the sword and shield of the Imperium. Perhaps what the Army is.. is its armor of the Imperium. Protecting the vitals but not a offensive asset except in the very rarest of times, or the times of the greatest of needs of the Imperium.

It comes down to the question can you enlist in the Imperial Army?

It is my reading of CT canon that you can, and that the Imperial Army is not just borrowed battalions as third party authors suggested later,

But I think the idea (at least from GT) is not that the Imperial Army borrowed Battalions, but rather that the member-worlds raised one or more Regiments thru their military establishment that were designated as the "Imperial Regiment(s)" of the homeworld (part of its membership contract) that did service in the Imperial Army, and as such, they were specifically Imperial Regiments as distinguished from the rest of the Regiments of a planet's Colonial Army / Planetary Defense Force. Because they were THE Imperial Regiment(s) raised by the world, their training was via the Imperial Army cadre, and was always up to TL-14/15 standard, regardless of homeworld TL. A world and the Battalions/Brigades/Divisions of its Colonial Army may be TL10, but the Imperial Regiments that they raise will be trained by the Imperial Army to TL14/15 Standard. In this I think the MgT Third Imperium book got it wrong in failing to make that distinction.

So I would agree with SigTrygg in this: Yes, you CAN enlist in the Imperial Army, and you generally do so by enlisting in one of the Imperial Regiments raised on your homeworld. You also have the option of enlisting in your local Colonial Army or PDF by simply enlisting in one of the Regiments that comprise your local home Army or Legion (but that is separate).

 

[ottarrus]

It comes down to the question can you enlist in the Imperial Army?

It is my reading of CT canon that you can, and that the Imperial Army is not just borrowed battalions as third party authors suggested later,

The Imperial Army is equal in status to the Imperial Navy, this is canon. The Imperial Star marines are thus a minor service.

Each GDW edition of Traveller has a different take on all three of the 'teeth' forces. The only Imperial armed service that doesn't get mucked with is the IISS, but that's because of the excellent original JTAS article describing the service.

To answer your question, yes, IMTU any sophont can join the Imperial Army by visiting a recruiter at any Class A or B starport [some Class C 'ports also host recruiting stations] and/or by X-mailing an application packet at their own expense. Lone recruits will usually be assigned to a regiment that matches the recruit's background and aptitudes to reduce culture shock, but every recruit is required to serve alongside any sophont in the Imperium without complaint. Obviously, some races are brigaded together for logistical and cultural reasons [Aslan or Githsiakio for two examples].

While the Army is equal in 'status' to the Navy and Marines, it still is very much a 'second fiddle' organization. Best selling vids are rarely made about the Army, whereas the space forces are often lauded in the media. Noble families send their children to the Senior Service by preference, and so on.

 

[steelbrok]

The Marines are long on teeth and short on tail.

I don't agree with this point. The Marines do have a long tail but their tail is provided by the IN whereas the Army has its own in-house tail.

 

[ottarrus]

I don't agree with this point. The Marines do have a long tail but their tail is provided by the IN whereas the Army has its own in-house tail.

The Marines' tail is shorter due to doctrine, not a lack of funding. They are not trained or equipped to take and hold ground indefinitely in the same way the Army is. This does not mean that they don't have or get support when needed. It's just that their mission is of shorter duration.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am all in favour of being able to enlist in a world's army or the Imperial Army.

I imagine that there will be worlds set aside for Imperial Army exercises.

I imagine there will be troop transports and assault craft the likes we haven't seen for the IN to transport brigades and divisions in one go.

Assault riders that take the place of Battle Riders on fleet tenders. Assault battleships that forgo spinal weapons in favour of troop accommodation, equipment, and orbital support artillery (meson bays)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

They are not listed as a major service - there is your evidence. The old "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is an unsafe debating point.

The Scout service comparison is not an exhaustive list of "major" services, it's just a comparison of its importance, as important as e.g. the Navy and the Army.

The Ministry of Information [aka Propaganda] or Justice [Security Police?] may very well be more important than any in the list.

 

[WHULorigan]

Assault riders that take the place of Battle Riders on fleet tenders. Assault battleships that forgo spinal weapons in favour of troop accommodation, equipment, . . .

Now you just had to go and put in my head the image of the "Spinal Mass-Driver Augmented Assault Landing Craft" . . .

 

[steelbrok]

Assault riders that take the place of Battle Riders on fleet tenders. A

I like this idea. Makes Fleet Tenders a lot more useful and flexible. Put a couple of Riders and and a mix or troop transports and orbital support stations (logistics and COACC combos?). Nix and match as needed.
They'd probably all need the same basic hull to fit onto the tenders but that's not a bad thing either